Post war Germans in Soviet captivity

My guess is probably yes, however its hard to tell for sure. One thing is definate, most German soldiers knew of the fate which awaited the "sub-humans".

 

Sloniksp, I acknowledge that the Nazis treated their Russian prisoners even more harshly than the Soviets treated their German prisoners. But both were treated badly -- and in the context of a 'war of annihilation' as decreed by Hitler, this is understandable.

I don't blame the Russian people or the German people for this cruelty. I blame the deluded ideologies that created Stalin and Hitler. The people of both sides were the victims of evil men who seized power and control.

The brutality of dictators was the main cause of wartime atrocities. The common people were expendable puppets and cannon fodder for the selfish leaders.

 

One quibble: Was the Russian treatment of German POWs worse than how Soviet citizens would have been treated in a gulag?

 

I'd say they were treated the same, being considered as a "traitor" to the Revolution wasn't any bette rthan being a "fascist" and for a guard a prisonner was more like a number than anything else ,Death took it's toll regarless nationalities and social class.

 

I would say thats a pretty accurate assessment. Perhaps a little worse than Soviet citizens but if so, definitely not by much.

 

You are right! I have an Uncle who was in the US Army in World War 2, and whose job it was to guard German prisoners in camps in the USA during the war (Minnesota). He said the Germans were mostly great guys who accepted their fate, were helpful and hard-working, and cooperative. The Germans in American hands were, more often then not, treated very well and to the letter of the Geneva conventions (if not better than required).

Americans in German hands, (mostly captured airmen, who were held in Luftwaffe camps just like hogan's Heroes - any other similaries in real life with TV show is of course, complete fiction) were also treated well, or at least better then they treated the Russians! Generally Americans or British, or French, were not harmed in any way except occasionally being under-fed (when this happened, you could be sure the local Germans were also going hungry too). If somebody was uncooperative or tried to escape, though, the game changed right away, the Germans did not hesitate to clamp down on unruly prisoners (many of the recaptured prisoners from "The Great Escape" incident were shot upon recapture.)

 

Not that this excuses anything, but probably a factor in the Stalingrad case was that the Russians had offered the defenders surrender under very generous terms earlier, but the Germans had turned down the offer even though defeat was inevitable.

So there's an aspect of 'you only get one chance', or of wanting revenge for delaying the Soviet operations by dragging out the siege. An earlier example can be seen in the Battle of Khalkhin Gol, where the Japanese 23rd division was annihilated (again under Zhukov's command) after being encircled and having refused to surrender.

 

A note on the US camps: Initially, the US simply put German POW's in whatever camp was convienent for them in the the US. Gradually, it became obvious that within each camp there was a small faction of die hard Nazis and sympathizers that were creating most of the problems within these camps.
These few "malefactors" were seperated (often being identified by other POW's who wanted them gone too) and sent to one camp where there was higher security and tougher treatment (think of it like a POW penitentary). This resulted in far fewer problems at the much more numerous and larger general POW camps the US had operational.

As for the Soviets: I don't think the Germans were treated better or worse than others in the Gulag system. Most were put to work doing things that were not conducive to long life like mining minerals like nickel, mercury (cinnabar) or, uranium or similar hard and dangerous work.

 

The German treated allied prisoners relatively well in exception to the Soviets. Especially American and British pilots.

 

Which is not to say they were comfortable. I remember some rather funny songs from a book that I have read which complained about the food that "the Krauts called bread and soup". I think that the kind of food offered was basically equal to a reduced military ration for the Germans, having the basic bread and soup without meats.

 

I don't know does German POW's sitting in Gulags for 10 years post war sound fair ? most likely not, two of my relatives did, one dying on his way home to Germany. From what I have read and those interviewed, in agreeing with Slon, the Russians received plenty from their German captors and the reverse so happened to the German landser when captured and the spoils went to the Victors. In fact one of my cousins who wrote a very brief diary before his departure off the face of the earth said "we deserved no less from the Soviets". Hmmmmmmmmm one made it back, while two others died in combat in the East; the one and the youngest died as mentioned above. War is Hell

 

Both German and Soviet armies treated eachothers POW's like dirt.

 

The way I understand it, treatment of POWs varies in German divisions. I have read some accounts that some German soldiers tried to share bread with their captives. The problem was the "big plan". The OKH and OKW's war plan didn't provide Russian POWs with enough rations or any real shelter in the camps to survive. Also the military in some cases ordered their men to strip the POWs of their winter gear because they did not have enough themselves. Mass death was inevitable whether the common soldier liked it or not.

The Soviets like wise committed atrocities very early in the war. Execution of POWs, torture, that sort of thing. In many ways they were like the Japanese. Doubtlessly there was a tit-for-tat going on in the East and made the biggest land war in history even more "unpleasant".

 

Luckily Stalin was not Hitler, if he had been - not a single German POW would have made it back alive.

It wasn't just cruelty or a way of paying it back as such that caused German POW's to stay in captivity till the 50's, but their refusal to accept Stalins offer to become better humans by declaring themselves as communists.

So one can see how indoctrinated or manipulated these Wehrmacht soldiers were in regards to the Nazi idiology even years after captivity and being made aware of the acts commited by the Nazi policy in Russia and elsewere.

Under these circumstances the Russians or Stalin certainly saw no reason at all to release those German POW's who still chlinched onto the Nazi believe or showed a firm stand against communism. (which to the Russians equaled to the same)

AFAIK General Paulus was back home in East-Germany pretty fast

Unfortunatly the Western Allies never undertook a proper program to "mentally clean" their German POW's of their Nazi believes or indoctrination. They were send home as fast as possible regardless of their mindset. It was only in Germany itsself that a denazificatin process was established - which IMO was very questionable in view to results obtained.

Back home in Germany, the Russians were still being painted as the expansionist, looting and raping Mongol Hordes, slowly joined by the western Allies who started to share that opinion. -Stalins Berlin Blockade and occupation policy of eastern Europe additionally supported this mindset.

The willingness of the Russians to release most of the remaining German POW's in 1955 was due to the Russians trying to forward an act of humanity so as to offer a different political picture of themelves " the after Stalin era" to the West.

Regards
Kruska

 

I saw a documentary about this a while back. Modern medicine looking at the German soldiers of Stalingrad. It appears it was common for a soldier to literally 'drop dead'. The stavation rations over a long period led to the body 'Giving up'. If this is true, then given the ineffective clothing of the Germans, the winter weather and the march, a 94% death rate is understandable. I haven't read too much about it but I find it hard to think the Russians would have been too kind to their captives. Perhaps not brutal like the Nazis but Stalin ruled by fear. He moved entire ethnic groups across Russia because a few had joined the Germans. The Tartars & Cossacks for example. They joined the Nazis not because they particularly supported them but they wanted rid of Communist rule themselves and the Germans were the only viable option. So I doubt many Soviet soldiers would risk being seen to feed or otherwise assist their prisoners, even if they had spare food.

And of course, The Russians, so it seems, never had a unified command structure. One group in the politburo did one thing only to change it if the boss looked like he wouldn't approve or had changed his mind.

Take the case of Raoul Wallenberg..........................

 

In the "Red Partisan" the author shares his personal experiences on the way to German POW camps.

His description of the treatment which the Russian soldiers received is mind boggling.

"Our column consisted of hundreds of men all exhausted, starving and freezing. When we had an opportunity to sit we would eat grass and anything leather we had on us. During the night we were told to get on our knees on the edge of bank with the water just barely hitting us. Anyone who moved or fell over was shot. We stayed like this the entire night . The following morning most were dead. This made keeping an eye on us and the march to the camp much easier..."

(Im paraphrasing from memory, I believe this occurred in November?)

The author managed to escape his imprisonment along with others only to join to the partisans. He had no love for the German soldier.

Such torture did not occur in the Russian Prison camps or on the way to them.

 

Torture occured on both sides from the NKVD and the Gestapo. Hitler and Stalin were both cruel men and had barely any regard toward human life.

 

While individual cases are of course likely this was not standard practice. The German POW's returning home in the 50's reinforce this as their accounts contradict your claim. Perhaps you can provide a source stating differently?



The experience described above by the author was committed by the Wehrmacht not by the Gestapo.

 

Read the quick link for information. NKVD Secret Police - Combat and Special Ops

I also have a book in my bookcase. I shall look for it now.

 

The point I was making is that Stalin and Hitler could care less about POWS.