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Prinz Eugen In 1945

Discussion in 'What If - European Theater - Western Front & Atlan' started by Shuttlelover101, Feb 4, 2010.

  1. Volga Boatman

    Volga Boatman Dishonorably Discharged

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    Eugen's battle record is certainly nothing to write home about.

    Apart from an 'unofficial' sinking of Bismark, it's hard to justify the money and materials spent of the Reich surface fleet. Seems to me they spent most of the war sitting in port and having bombs dropped on them. Oh well, suppose it gave the RAF something different to do.
     
  2. Shuttlelover101

    Shuttlelover101 Member

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    Volga,
    this who idea, came out of a dream i had about her a few mouths back.. And I just wanted to see wha you guys through about it?
    Nikki
     
  3. Gerard

    Gerard Member

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    Its a ridiculous idea to be honest. How could this have happened - look what happened the Bismarck - all we need is for a fairey swordfish to get a lucky torpedo and thats it - game over. The Japanese and Americans proved time and again that Surface Ships were totally obsolete in 1941 - look what happened to the Prince of Wales and Repulse. Who cares?
    Whats more important is what she did in the Baltic in 1944-45. She participated in the Kriegsmarine's finest hour.
     
  4. lwd

    lwd Ace

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    I agree with most of what you said. However the following is clearly incorrect.
    Indeed they aren't even obselecent today much less obsolete.
     
  5. Gerard

    Gerard Member

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    Great!
     
  6. Shuttlelover101

    Shuttlelover101 Member

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    Guys,
    I wasn't trying to come off sounding like a butt head, ok!
    Nikki
     
  7. Gerard

    Gerard Member

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    No problem, but why so many "what if" threads about Prinz Eugen??? Did you feel she got a raw deal historically???
     
  8. Shuttlelover101

    Shuttlelover101 Member

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    Gottnard,
    PG Is just special to me, and i cant put my finger on why.. but she just is.. So people are always underestimating her.. She could still bite you, if you let her..
    Nikki
     
  9. Gerard

    Gerard Member

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    No she couldnt......she's upside down at Kwajelein........ I dont underestimate her......but appreciate her for what she was................ all this "what if the other ships had no armament and they were up against Prinz Eugen"????
     
  10. brndirt1

    brndirt1 Saddle Tramp

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    No she couldn't, and never did. Unless you count bombarding shores "biting" you? She never sank anything.

    One simply must remember that the Prinz Eugen was the only one of three proposed cruisers of the class completed. And she was really just an enlarged Hipper Class and the problems with the troublesome Hipper Class engines was not resolved. In spite of a handsome appearance, it disguised an overall mediocrity in both the Hippers and the Prinz Eugen.

    Despite their handsome appearance both the Hipper Class and the modified Prinz Eugen they all lacked a certain ruggedness overall, a true engine system weakness, with only the turrets sufficiently armored. The one experience with a torpedo in February 1942, when she was entering Trondheim Fjord, Norway exposed it. That was when her stern was heavily damaged by a single torpedo from British submarine Trident. This testified to the designs continued problems with hull structure beyond its citadel and the triple screw propulsion configuration (the same flaw which doomed the Bismarck).

    The Prinz Eugen only particiapted in two sea borne operations, Operation Rheinübung (with the Bismarck) and Operation Cerberus (Channel Dash). In neither operation did she sink anything, and only scored three or four hits out of 180 main gun shots in Rheinübung.

    The engine problems had never been resolved as was proven when she started across the Atlantic with a prize crew but suffered a complete engine failure/breakdown and required a tow to complete the journey to America. There is no question that the high pressure boilers (1,012psi) and inadequate condensers caused her trouble throughout her life. They were the same reason that after leaving the Bismarck and heading south to continue "commerce raiding" she was forced to return to Brest France for repair. (Fleets of World War II; Richard Worth. p. 53)
     
    Gerard likes this.
  11. Shuttlelover101

    Shuttlelover101 Member

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    brndirt1,
    I know Richard! but i dont have any of his book! he's cool!
    Nikki
     
  12. brndirt1

    brndirt1 Saddle Tramp

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    He posts here occasionally under the username "Tiornu", my signed copy of Fleets of World War II is a great reference and an easy read actually. Glad you know him. See if you cannot pick the book up.
     
  13. Erich

    Erich Alte Hase

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    suggest a couple of titles to read then ......

    gunner Offizier of the Prinz Paul Schmalenbachs Kreuzer Prinz Eugen. He also wrote upone of the nice little ship profles on the ship years ago as well.

    the thread is going nowhere time to close it.
     
  14. Shuttlelover101

    Shuttlelover101 Member

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    Tiornu,
    Is such a butt-head with me, he's still a great guy! The book Paul did on her, is in German isn't it? Were can i find it in English? PG was bigger then both of her sisters, right? here's how i could tell her and bismarck apart, she's older, but he's a huck of a lot bigger then her!
    NIKKI
     
  15. spaced_monkey

    spaced_monkey Member

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    A ship that handle the 2 nuke test (near midway were they not if my memory serves me right ) with little or no major damage could handle it own in a scrap, a side from some minor flaws that should have been worked out in shake down cruises, it was probably the finest Heave cruiser class of the war. In optimal conditions and with full ammo racks i figure she could go 2-2 1/2 to 1 against ships of the same size.

    As for any information found in American literature, i would be wary at best for the American ability to tell tales that makes themselves look good and everyone else look bad is well know and documented LOL.
     
  16. brndirt1

    brndirt1 Saddle Tramp

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    You seem quite ill-informed about the Prinz Eugen, yes it survived the atomic tests, but so did a great many other ships as well. She had to be towed to the site as her undependable engines had once again failed her.

    One simply must remember that the Prinz Eugen was the only one of three proposed cruisers of the class completed. And she was really just an enlarged Hipper Class and the problems with the troublesome Hipper Class engines had NOT been resolved. In spite of a handsome appearance, it only disguised an overall mediocrity in both the Hippers and the Prinz Eugen.

    Despite their handsome appearance both the Hipper Class and the modified Prinz Eugen they all lacked a certain ruggedness overall, a true engine system weakness, with only the turrets sufficiently armored. The one experience with a torpedo in February 1942, when she was entering Trondheim Fjord, Norway exposed it. That was when her stern was heavily damaged by a single torpedo from British submarine Trident. This testified to the designs continued problems with hull structure beyond its citadel and the triple screw propulsion configuration (the same flaw which doomed the Bismarck).

    The Prinz Eugen only particiapted in two sea borne operations, Operation Rheinübung (with the Bismarck) and Operation Cerberus (Channel Dash). In neither operation did she sink anything, and only scored three or four hits out of 180 main gun shots in Rheinübung.

    The engine problems had never been resolved as was proven when she started across the Atlantic with a prize crew but suffered a complete engine failure/breakdown and required a tow to complete the journey to America. There is no question that the high pressure boilers (1,012psi) and inadequate condensers caused her trouble throughout her life. They were the same reason that after leaving the Bismarck and heading south to continue "commerce raiding" she was forced to return to Brest France for repair. (Fleets of World War II; Richard Worth. p. 53)

    This crusier was certainly NOT the finest heavy in the war.
     
  17. Heinrich

    Heinrich Member

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    Im more amazed the PE survived two very heavy nuclear test explosions before she capseized at Kwajalein in dec 1946 ...
     
  18. brndirt1

    brndirt1 Saddle Tramp

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    Here are some good links to the "fate" of the ships used in the Operation Crossroads two tests,most of them actually survived the blasts, one air burst and one underwater explosion.

    See:

    Disposition of Target Vessels at Operation Crossroads

    And:

    Operation Crossroads, Nuclear Tests at Bikini

    Here is a Popular Mechanics article on the Crossroads tests, before they took place:

    Popular Mechanics - Google Books

    There were 103 ships in the Able test, most survived. Here is a good run-down on test Able the air dropped bomb. Baker was the underwater detonation, and the old USS Nevada (BB- 36) survived both tests as well, and she was "ground-zero" for the air dropped bomb. That is neither here nor there, most of the ships survived the tests really. See that list I first put up. A great many were towed away, and later sunk as target ships.

    See:

    Operation Crossroads: Bikini Atoll: Naval Art form the Atomic Bomb Test

     
  19. lwd

    lwd Ace

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    I'd take a Baltimore anytime. In most situations I'd give her about a 50:50 chance against a single big US CL. In some situations it wouldn't be that good. Obviously she'd stand no chance at all vs one of the large US cruisers or a DesMoines.
     
  20. Shuttlelover101

    Shuttlelover101 Member

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    Lee,
    I could see her taken on Baltimore, and maybe win! could she handle herself against USS Baltimore, Boston, Canberra, Quincy,Pittsburgh, Saint Paul. they have 9 × 8 inch/55 caliber guns, 12 × 5 inch/38 caliber guns, 48 × 40 mm Bofors guns,24 × 20 mm Oerlikon cannons. What do you guys thing?
    Nikki
     

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