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Rat lines created to help escaping Nazi War Criminals by the Catholic Church

Discussion in 'General Discussion' started by Von Ritter, Sep 10, 2020.

  1. Takao

    Takao Ace

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    Bronk, I thought you were supposed to be bringing new proof to the table, as I have, not rehashing old material we have already gone through. Repeating the same claim over and over again is unproductive...You did not convince me the first time you brought it up, so what makes you think you are going to convince me by repeating a 5th time without adding any new or supplemental evidence.

    Ummm...No it is not...The book provides no direct link that the money raised by Spellman for the NCWC went to help Nazi ratlines. It makes the assumption that a portion of this money eventually was used to fund Nazi ratlines.

    Your hatred trips you up my friend, as nowhere did I say this. Please quote me where I said this.

    The papal relief commission helped millions of refugees and children after the war. To do so, is going to take a great deal of coin. Where is this mostly going to come from? - The only prosperous nation left untouched by the war. Hence, the book is stating the obvious.

    What is left unfounded is the direct link. The author makes the leap of faith that the money raised by the NCWC and passed along to the PCA eventually helped fund Nazi ratlines. Now for this to be true, the Vatican must be completely broke. It wasn't and had it's own sizeable funds to draw upon. However, the author fails to complete the money trail by following the money through to it's final destination.

    And...What is your point?

    Where is it written that I must 100% agree with everything in a book before I can recommend it? What is the accepted percentage of agreement for recommendation - 99%, 95%, 90%, 85%?

    Again, the money trail is not followed through to it's eventual end. It stops in the middle - leaving room for reasonable doubt.

    The $$$$ raised by Spellman could have easily went to the millions of refugees and children, with nothing going to the ratlines. The last remaining connections in the money trail are never made, only assumed.

    By the logic used, all of them were...As well as all their parishioners.

    The book never completes the money trail from Spellman to the ratlines, thus it does not support you conclusion.

    Your first link was a pay wall.

    Considering your 2nd link (Wiki carbon copy) mentions neither Nazis or ratlines...What is there to support?

    The 3rd link was unsubstantiated material - "some historians" (of course no names are given) and "it has been written" (of course, no mention where it has been written or what was written about it). I much prefer...Historian So-and-So said this quoted paragraph or three. As opposed to simply leaving it to my imagination.

    Considering your 2nd to last link WAS the book...The book supporting the book...Wow! Who woulda thunk that.
     
    Last edited: Sep 17, 2020
  2. bronk7

    bronk7 Well-Known Member

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    what's irrefutable from the book:
    ...the Vatican/Catholic Church [ whatever -anyway you cut it ] greatly helped the Nazis escape--financially --they '''''received a LARGE part of its necessary funds'''''' from the US
    ...ARCHbishopSpellman had the ''greatest influence''' on and '''determined the flow of money from the United States''''

    --doesn't matter if the $$$ are tied to it or not---''large part''''....so without the ''large part''', they wouldn't have been able to finance the ratline as efficiently/etc..it's like using $$$$$ that were donated to you for legitimate costs, then you use your salary for the ratline/'''illegal'' purposes...without the donation, not much $$$$ for the ''illegal'' purposes--you'd be broke--couldn't do anything

    I knew you would say that--I knew it
    hahahhahah--any way you cut it, Spellman helped--a lot!!!!! ..he wasn't granny giving a dollar or the priest counting the $$$$$
    1. from the book or anyway you cut it = ARCHbishop-''greatest influence......determined the flow of money''''
    he's a head honcho/bigwig/etc --not the layman collecting the tithe or the trashman
    2.''''' his position of POWER was based on his financial skills''''
    3. fine, if you want to put it that way [ cut it any way you want ] , the parishioners DID help--they gave mucho $$$..is it ''illegal''/criminal = no.....but they helped--but did not have as much' ''influence'''/involvement/etc as much as Spellman = big difference

    you try to refute that an East Coast priest helped the Ratline --
    ...where did anyone mention Spellman/etc?

    arch·bish·op
    /ˌärCHˈbiSHep
    1. the chief bishop responsible for an archdiocese
    An archbishop or metropolitan, in the present sense of the term, is a bishop who governs a diocese strictly his own, while he presides at the same time over the bishops of a well-defined district composed of simple dioceses
    CATHOLIC ENCYCLOPEDIA: Archbishop
    bold/large for emphasis
     
    Last edited: Sep 19, 2020
  3. bronk7

    bronk7 Well-Known Member

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    it's on page 107:
    '''''the papal relief commission received a LARGE part of its necessary funds from the Catholic Church in the United states''''
    ..caps mine

    --the only ''speculation'' is whether the $$$ came from ''''a special fund or was centrally administrated''' = page 106

    ....also page 106:
    ....'''''one important question was whether the money for the support of the refugees--including the National Socialists--came from a special fund or was centrally administrated''''' = that money was used for the ratline
     
  4. wm.

    wm. Well-Known Member

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    It wasn't the Catholic Church but some of its members, for example from Austria.
    It wasn't supported or organized by the Catholic Church.

    It's like claiming that because Lee Harvey Oswald was an American then the US killed JFK.
     
  5. Kai-Petri

    Kai-Petri Kenraali

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    Who in Italy then made the escape possible?
     
  6. Takao

    Takao Ace

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    Don't forget catholic Germans, Yugoslavs, Croats, italians, Ukrainians, and the list became much longer in 1946-48.
     
  7. wm.

    wm. Well-Known Member

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    It wasn't really any Hoolywood-like escape.
    Millions of Eastern European peasants or Jews emigrated to America, frequently illiterate people, who literally knew nothing without any trouble.
    The Nazis needed money, lodging, help in getting a visa, and buying a ticket in a foreign country.
    A single person could have sent them all away - it wasn't any harder than today.
     
  8. ARWR

    ARWR Active Member

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    It was pretty hard the US had strict quotas and for example turned many Jews away
    If you were a European peasant you weren't on any list and no one was looking for you but many Nazis needed new identities and that takes organisation more than a single person could provide.
     
  9. wm.

    wm. Well-Known Member

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    That's true, it was better to be supported by an organization.
    But papers could have been lifted from a (reasonably similar) dead person or bought. In occupied Germany everything was on sale, false or real papers included.
    To avoid the lists it was sufficient to depart for America from a neutral country or from Italy where nobody gave a damn about any lists.

    There were never any Jewish quotas in the US. The quotas were per country and were designed to totally exclude non-whites, i.e., the Africans and the Asians.
     
  10. ARWR

    ARWR Active Member

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    Read Out on a Ledge: Enduring the Lodz Ghetto, Auschwitz, and Beyond by Eva Libitzky a very gutsy lady to see the reality of how difficult it was for survivors to reach the USA.
     
  11. wm.

    wm. Well-Known Member

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    Please, that was under Nazi occupation.
    Although the Nazis allowed Jewish emigration during the occupation (to neutral countries and Palestine) only wealthy people could have afforded it.
    What you talking about was possible for, I don't know, maybe several hundred people. An everyday Polish Jew couldn't afford a bicycle, not to mention a transcontinental voyage.

    A Jew who was able to escape from Europe would be welcome with open arms by the Allies, especially if she was a Polish citizen, i.e., a citizen of an allied country.

    From Germany about 400,000 Jews were able to emigrate pre-war, those who remained were mostly too poor or too old for that.
     
    bronk7 likes this.
  12. wm.

    wm. Well-Known Member

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    These are the Jews that were mostly killed during the Holocaust (and the people in suits weren't them.) Nothing could have saved them.
    Eva Libitzky was an exception, not the rule.

     
  13. Von Ritter

    Von Ritter New Member

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    The New identifies were supplied by the European Red Cross in the form of Red Cross passports. Bishop Hudal in Rome was responsible for organizing and hiding Nazi War Criminals until they could immigrate to Spain or South America.

    Austrian Catholic bishop Alois Hudal, a Nazi sympathiser, was rector of the Pontificio Istituto Teutonico Santa Maria dell'Animain Rome, a seminary for Austrian and German priests, and "Spiritual Director of the German People resident in Italy".[12] After the end of the war in Italy, Hudal became active in ministering to German-speaking prisoners of war and internees then held in camps throughout Italy. In December 1944, the Vatican Secretariat of State received permission to appoint a representative to "visit the German-speaking civil internees in Italy", a job assigned to Hudal.

    Hudal used this position to aid the escape of wanted Nazi war criminals, including Franz Stangl, commanding officer of Treblinka; Gustav Wagner, commanding officer of Sobibor; Alois Brunner, responsible for the Drancy internment camp near Paris and in charge of deportations in Slovakia to German concentration camps; Erich Priebke, who was responsible for the Ardeatine Massacre; and Adolf Eichmann—a fact about which he was later unashamedly open.[13][14] Some of these wanted men were being held in internment camps: generally without identity papers, they would be enrolled in camp registers under false names. Other Nazis hid in Italy and sought Hudal out as his role in assisting escapes became known on the Nazi grapevine.

    Ratlines (World War II aftermath) - Wikipedia

    Red Cross Passports

    Red Cross and Vatican helped thousands of Nazis to escape
     
    Last edited: Oct 10, 2020
  14. Von Ritter

    Von Ritter New Member

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  15. bronk7

    bronk7 Well-Known Member

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    hahhahahahaa
    ..the book says you are wrong ..go back and read the quotes
     
  16. bronk7

    bronk7 Well-Known Member

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    ye
    s, it was supported by the Church--read the quotes
     
  17. bronk7

    bronk7 Well-Known Member

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    ..I see a lot of very ridiculous comparisons on forums......yours is another example
    ....priests are part of a very ''powerful/rich''[ $$$$$ ] group/etc that has a hierarchy/etc--comparing that to L H Oswald is nonsensical/ridiculous ..LHO was not part of a group/etc.....etc
     
  18. Kai-Petri

    Kai-Petri Kenraali

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    When Germany was occupied during war and after surrender did the Allied have Any lists of ss/army criminals that should be arrested and put to court. Naturally Göring etc were easy to identify but I recall that there were no such lists so you almost could stay unnoticed even using your own name for some period even for some years or escape with false/true papers as you were not seeked. Anyone else read about this?
     
  19. bronk7

    bronk7 Well-Known Member

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    go
    good question......but I would think they had some kind of lists .....other than the Big Guys [ hahahahah ]
    ... I would think Brit, American, and the French intelligence/etc would've listed/filed names in particular order, of people they wanted, wanted to interrogate, etc..especially the French---who not only had their country ''raped'', but also their citizens murdered by those people
     
  20. Kai-Petri

    Kai-Petri Kenraali

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    Wonder how Many have read the Fredrick Forsythe book Odessa or Odessa's men? Been some 40+ years when I read it so not totally sure of the book name except the Odessa. I guess it was more or less fiction now.
     

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