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Russian Navy "On Verge of Collapse"

Discussion in 'The Stump' started by GRW, Jan 19, 2015.

  1. Carronade

    Carronade Ace Patron  

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  2. Takao

    Takao Ace

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  3. CAC

    CAC Ace of Spades

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  4. Takao

    Takao Ace

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  5. CAC

    CAC Ace of Spades

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    I didn't realise Russia had only one carrier...a limited "reach"...don't know why they bother.

    Question: Should Australia get back into the carrier business or has the carrier seen its best days?
     
  6. Takao

    Takao Ace

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    Yeah, all of the other ex-Soviet carriers were sold off or scrapped. The Soviets were late to the carrier party, and were only just beginning to enter into full-sized carrier production when the CCCP fell apart. They "bother" because of the prestige associated with having a full-sized aircraft carrier, and it does allow them some flexibility in conducting naval/air operations abroad.

    Depends on how much Australia was prepared to spend on said carrier construction...and manning costs...and outfitting costs...and cost of the carrier's escort ships...and the cost of manning & outfitting those ships...Then there is the maintenance & upkeep cost.

    You should also define what type of carrier? Full-size or Amphibious assault or ASW?
     
  7. CAC

    CAC Ace of Spades

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    [​IMG]
    Well we have the latter...Amphibious

    And fielded two aircraft carriers in the past, so we know whats expected...I wouldn't be surprised if the US/Trump tells us we need at least one to assist in the South China sea...what we would say back is, for every Australian carrier China will build two...so not a great idea methinks...
    What would be so wrong or impossible if you ran F-35s off this sort of platform (as above)? Obviously the VTOL version...
     
    Last edited: Oct 30, 2018
  8. Carronade

    Carronade Ace Patron  

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    As Takao said, they had and planned to have more, stepping up from helicopter to VSTOL to conventional carriers. They even started construction of a CVN, and there's still a program on the books, although it's unsure if it will ever go forward.

    It is rather pointless to have only one carrier. The capabilities and operations of a carrier navy are very different from one without, but a single ship will inevitably be out of service for significant periods, possibly when you most need it - or when a potential enemy could take advantage of your overhaul schedule. If I were a midsized navy considering a carrier program, I would be inclined not to build one unless we could build and operate at least two.

    "has the carrier seen its best days?" Well, growing navies are still looking to include carriers in their fleets, and no navy that had carriers has ever gotten rid of them for reasons other than economic.
     
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  9. CAC

    CAC Ace of Spades

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    And the F-35 question?
     
  10. gtblackwell

    gtblackwell Well-Known Member Patron  

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    I am not well enough informed about the current state of the Russian Navy but it seems to be recovering a bit from the Soviet collapse. They recently constructed two "stealth" frigates for India. Probably at bargain cost wise compared to one of ours. I do note that Boeing has a contract to upgrade the Indian Naval missile systems. .So India may be buying Russian platforms and our weapons for them. :)
     
  11. Takao

    Takao Ace

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    AFAIK, Australia had 3 carriers...Sydney, Melbourne, and Vengeance. Although, Vengeance was only in service for less than 5 years during the early 1950s.
     
  12. Takao

    Takao Ace

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    Also, from what I gather these 2 Aussie ships are helicopter carriers, as opposed to aircraft carriers. So far Australia has balked at the expense involved in converting these two to fixed-wing aircraft operations.
     
  13. CAC

    CAC Ace of Spades

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    So you agree that these would at least suffice as a platform for F-35s? And any future aircraft for that matter...Is/should the amphibian style be the new aircraft carrier...or another way of putting it...with the STOL ability does an aircraft carrier have to be as big/long as current models? Are we or should we be seeing the last of those mega carriers? - Think of a giant catamaran...or better a giant trimaran...with a large deck, squarish...with a lift a either end down to the hangers...VTOL aircraft lifting off and hovering and slowly landing...the trimaran itself cruising along at 40 plus knots...two creases at the third and two thirds mark fold up bringing the two sides closer too the centre during rough weather...ok I’ll stop now...just a glimpse into a possible near future...

    And thanks for reminding me of the Vengeance... : )
     
    Last edited: Oct 31, 2018
  14. lwd

    lwd Ace

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    The Indians are moving away from Russian weapons. The corruption there has slowed the migration but a number of recent issues with a wide variety of Russian weapons has rather soured the Indians on them. There have been some rather interesting blogs on this over on the strategy page (at least IMO).
     
  15. Carronade

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    As Takao said, they would need some modifications. Although they are based on the Spanish Juan Carlos I which operates Harriers, they are not identical. There has been talk of operating USMC F-35s on a temporary basis, so apparently it's not impossible, but turning them into regular F-35 carriers would involve significant investment in addition to the aircraft, which Australia has thus far not elected to undertake.

    People have been predicting the demise of the big-deck carrier ever since the Harrier came along, but countries that can afford them are going with conventional carriers, often with ski-jumps, but the Indians and Chinese are looking at catapults for their next generation.

    One issue with VSTOL is that there is only one aircraft available, the F-35, although the Spanish are stretching out their Harriers a bit longer. Perhaps if there were more countries/companies building small aircraft that could operate from small platforms, they would be more popular.

    As I've bored the group with before, I think the LHD concept - putting massive well decks and vehicle decks into aviation ships - is questionable, although it does have appeal from the budgetary point of view.

    Oddly enough I wrote a paper in NROTC about catamaran Harrier carriers (hey, it was the '70s) but they still haven't gotten to the really giant point. It might be interesting to experiment with an Expeditionary Fast Transport carrying a few F-35s, although they apparently have rough rides even in moderate seas. They're a ways off from replacing real carriers.

    Not sure I get your idea about the folding trimaran.......
     
    Last edited: Nov 1, 2018
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  16. CAC

    CAC Ace of Spades

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    The two wings of the trimaran fold in bringing the two outside’booms’ closer to,the main centre hull...nice idea you had in the 70s too...I’m presuming that STOL and VTOL will be the future for many/most aircraft...
     
  17. USMCPrice

    USMCPrice Idiot at Large

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    Don't know, but don't think so. marines have operated Harriers and now the F-35B from the small deck LHA/LHD ships. There was a period in recent years where these ships deployed in place of the big deck carriers when we didn't have enough big deck carriers to meet operational requirements. With a smaller airgroup, and with STOVL having the ability to carry less ordinance when operating in short take-off mode, they have much reduced capabilities than a full size CV. If the choice is between a CV and a LHA/LHD I'd choose the CV. If the choice was between an LHA/LHD and no carrier, I'd take the short deck.
     
  18. Carronade

    Carronade Ace Patron  

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    I was looking up STOL aircraft and ran across this photo of the Russian SU-80 looking like it achieves STOL performance by balloon!! ;)

    [​IMG]
     
  19. Carronade

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    When the Harrier came out, people were saying that VSTOLs would take over, operating from all kinds of ships, unimproved air bases, highways, etc. but here we are over half a century later......

    One argument for big-deck carriers is the ability to operate lower performance aircraft, especially AEW, but also tankers, COD, etc. This has been a factor in the French, Russian, Chinese, and Indian programs. There has been considerable development of STOL commercial aircraft - how I ran across the Su-80 - if a fixed-wing plane could carry an AEW suite, perhaps a conformal array, it would make the smaller carriers more viable. Not aware of any such being developed as yet. There may also be a UAV option in the future.
     
    Last edited: Nov 5, 2018
  20. lwd

    lwd Ace

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    Latest from the strategy page on this:
    Russia: Stalemate
    Loosing their carrier and a drydock to an accident couldn't have helped.
     

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