Scheldt Estuary and 15th Army

Probably discussed before but I couldn´t find here on the Forums.

Some 80,000 German soldiers escaped (?) before Market Garden from the Scheldt and I was wondering where this force was involved in stopping the allied attack? And if this force had been sieged in time would it have been a different story for the Market Garden? Or was it possible to siege them early enough?

 

Yes, Zanger's (I may have the name of the CO slightly off as I don't have sources in front of me...it might be Zangen or something close) 15th Army was an insturmental part of making the advance slow as well as blocking the road on several occasions. It was largely Monty's failure to clear Antwerp and the Scheldt prior to Market Garden that allowed this to occur.

 

*bump*

 

I think, but am not sure, that the German divisions in the 15th Army defended the Scheldt estuary and the western part of Holland. If units were involved against the Market Garden troops, I think there weren't many from the 15th Army. Will see if I have anything in my books on this.

Remember that the Scheldt Estuary wasn't cleared until November 1944, way after Market Garden was over and done with.

 

The whole Antwerp / Scheldt situation was a big problem not just for Market-Garden. It would seem that Monty in one of his "my plan is better" attitudes and had his eye fixed on crossing the Rhine and advancing to Berlin rather than ensuring both his own and the other Allied armies' supply position. Monty throughout September paid little more than lip service to clearing Antwerp and the Channel ports despite repeated orders and instructions from SHAFE to do so.
Had Monty first cleared these ports the Germans would have faced a broad front advance with the Allies having much of their supply problems relieved. Market-Garden would not have had large intact German forces on both sides of its advance as well.
Instead, Monty demanded all the available supplies and pushed for the narrow front advance that became Market-Garden. In retrospective it was a failure both in strategy and in operational execution. While I am not one to particularly bash Monty as a general in this portion of the NW Europe campaign Monty proved himself a mediocre commander with little real strategic foresight.

 

http://www.marketgarden.com/new/page1a.html

http://www.marketgarden.com/new/page1b.html

http://www.ramskov.nu/krih/marketgarden/theplan4.htm

Maybe these links are of some use. Seems that only Student's paratroopers were involved.

 

'The blame, however, is not all Montgomery's, for Eisenhower too had failed to appreciate the danger'.

Lamb, 'Montgomery In Europe' , p.201

 

Stevin, the link you´re providing claims that the 80,000 that escaped joined the Student´s paratroopers to defend the line Breda-Tilburg-Best if I understood correctly...

 

*Bump*

Definitely not trying to make anybody the scapegoat here. Just interested whether it would have changed the balance enough to make the Market Garden a total success if the German troops had not escaped? It would have opened the northern gate for the Monty operation to push for Ruhr area and -maybe-ended the war some 6 months earlier?

Then the question stays whether they should have tried to get Berlin or leave it to the Red Army...

------

In one book I read that the coastline cities were left to the Candians to take care of, but it seems that this did not take place early enough as:

1. The Canadians arrived in Dieppe on 1 September.
The Division had been badly mauled and needed to reorganize. Montgomery directed General Crerar, commanding the Canadians, not to stop. Crerar explained that the Division was due to absorb 1000 replacements, and that there was no point in pressing forward until the Somme crossings had been secured.

2.On 3 September, the Second Division marched through the streets of Dieppe . General Crerar, ordered by Montgomery to attend a conference at the Tactical Headquarters of Second British Army, had instead chosen to attend the ceremony in Dieppe, and took the salute as the Division marched past.---So General Crerar was not aware why he should attack the coastline fast and not let any Germans escape. If he had been aware of the Market Garden then the idea of pushing forward faster might have been accepted by him??

 

If I can have a list of those troops that escaped, if by units, then I can check my German OOBs for Market-Garden and tell you where they fought and the effect they had. Their are several naval infantry formations fighting in the Arnhem/Nijmegen area. Would these have been some of these troops?

I will look for troops from 15th Army in the meantime...

 

Found this from 'It never snows in September'...

"In 16 days nine shattered divisions - 59, 70, 245, 331, 334, 17 Luftwaffe Field, 346, 711 and 712 - were evacuated. The task was completed by 21st September... As a result TWO badly battered and poorly armed divisions of these troops became available, appearing in Brabant on 16th & 17th September. The 245th Division under Colonel Kegler and the 59th under General-Leutant Poppe. The latter for example retained 1000 good infantry men, a field replacment battalion, 18 A/T guns and about 30 105 and 150 howitzers. They were to play an important role in future operations."

59th Division saw action against the 101st sector of the corridor 17th - 20th and in attacks on Veghel 22nd - 23rd. Kershaws book has a great deal on the 59 Div and its important role in German operations.

 

Interesting.

I think that only the remnants of the 15th Army on the far eastern edge of the frontline, running from the Scheldt to Best/Zon were engaged. Have found no sources other than I already stated, but I doubt if they made a big impact on the fighting. Think the ss and FSJ units did most of the fighting here (on the west side of the corridor).

Some of the other (Dutch) books that are about that general area and time usually mention Kampfgruppen more than whole divisions...

 

Well, too be honest the 59th Div was just a large kampfgruppe really of two regiments. Am re-reading the Kershaw book on all the 59th bits! Also should be getting another OOB for Arnhem this week so I can see what that has...

I do have a OOB list for the 59th for 17th - 20th, will post the OOB later.

 

Then again...???

As usual, hindsight plays a large role in this analysis. Those who argued that Montgomery should have ordered his corps to advance beyond Antwerp to seal off the Beveland Peninsula—the exit route for 15th Army—have failed to explain how this would have helped open the port of Antwerp. If the 82,000 men who escaped had been trapped and then used to reinforce the 20,000 German troops left behind to defend Walcheren Island and the south shore of the estuary, known to Canadians as the Breskens Pocket, the approaches to Antwerp might have remained in German hands until the end of the war.

http://www.legionmagazine.com/features/canadianmilitaryhistory/01-01.asp

 

Some thoughts and ideas on Scheldt and Market Garden previously.

 

Scheldt escape of 80,000 Germans and Market Garden-some thoughts.

 

Perhaps a bit of "victory disease" crept into the brains of Allied commanders. It ain't over till it's over.

 

No way to be sure that had the 80k troops reinforced the island garrison might have drawn greater attention to clear the pocket as a 100k force might be seen as more dangerous.

 

The Germans were past-masters at stitching together mauled units to form effectively fighting kampfgruppen.. They would do it again during M-G and also on the West-Wall.

 

Bump on the Market Garden......