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  1. Yankee

    Yankee Member

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    Any Ideas on how it could have worked?

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  2. Ron

    Ron Member

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    I think the only possible way the Germans could have succeded was that they eliminated the RAF and didn't have Gorring as commander.
    Gorring was to cocky and not the best strategist.
    If they finally managed to eliminate the RAF the next key player would have been the British navy. It would have been tough to keep the British guns away from the invasion fleet with the relatively small german surface fleet. The u-boats would have had an effect but can not blockade. If a powerful british navel squadren got in among the invasion fleet it could have ended the invasion.
    The only way to win would be to land a significant amount of troops and capture London and hold off the british navy as long as possible. There would be a slim chance of holding off the british ships through an organized defence of mines, U-boats, Aircraft, and finally german surface ships.
    All in all if the germans could have negated the british in the air and at sea...there is no question they would have defeated the british on land.
     
  3. Yankee

    Yankee Member

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    The Germans were going to Mine the area from Dover to Pas De Calais to prevent the English from entereing the Channel there and the English Navy would have been helpless during the Day to avoid the Luftwaffe so it would have needed to do Nighttime raids which meant only the fastest ships that would be able to raid French ports with German Troop buildups because the Germans were stopping the convoys at Night. So inorder for the English to get into the Channel shell the Port and be back out before first light the English battleships wouldnt have been too effective.

    The Germans had a Large beachfront planned which included Commondos seizing the Dover guns and the surrounding area using the Guns on the English.

    Also the English didnt have their Beaches very well defended so what they had was something similiar to the Gustav line in Italy it was an area they could fall back too and hope to fight the Germans on their own Turf (although confronting the full German war machine in open country was suicide) the English would have surrendered before they allowed London to face the wrath of plundering German Soldiers. The English had selected severl Nazi sympathizers that were rather Moderate and they felt could meet with the Germans and negiotate a peace while the Royal Family and Churchill fled to the Caribean (because the Canadians would allow the Royal family but didnt want Churchill running the war from Ottawa) From there the English would wait..

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  4. Ron

    Ron Member

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    it is interesting to wonder what the US forces would have done if Britian was defeated?
    I guess they would go up Italy or southern France. Makes the imagination fly!
     
  5. Yankee

    Yankee Member

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    The US didnt want any involvement. The Reason that Canada wouldnt allow Churchill to stay in Canada was because Roosevelt was trying despretely to keep Canadas role in the war Down if England fell he didnt want the War to be brought to North America.

    The US would have made peace with Nazi Germany and resumed peacetime relations.

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  6. Ron

    Ron Member

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    Hmmm i wonder if Germany would make peace terms..or would say that as long as the US wages war with Japan...Germany won't accept peace terms with US. Although it is TOTALLY in Hitlers best interest to make peace with the US.
    At this point ther are so many variables you can argue in almost any direction!! interesting though.
     
  7. Gibson

    Gibson Member

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    German forces would have had devastating losses on the beaches, especially with the so called 'landing craft' they were going to use, which were basically modified tugs.

    Once they did establish a foothold on Britain and kept the RN in check, I could see London falling within three-four weeks, and the rest of England soon after.
     
  8. Yankee

    Yankee Member

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    The General English strategy was concertating their forces on GHQ line. Once this fell that meant the English would have no forces left to stop the Army.

    The Germans wouldnt have taken many casualties on the beach because the English forces were spread too thin to offer any resistance like that seen on the beaches of Normandy with the exception of some reinforced beach houses that would have more of a Nusiance and annoyance to cleaup up then a barrier. The only large English fortifications that would have been a problem would have been the Dover installations but assuming the Germans didnt just attack dover from behind and you would be left with a Magnot line situation. The Germans also planned motor boat Raiding parties on areas as far north as Harwich to confuse the English as to the exact location of the Landing force. The landings were most likely going to occur around Brighton with the 7th and 17th infantry divisions pushing there way to establish a beachhead.

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  9. CoWBoY MoRoN

    CoWBoY MoRoN Member

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    OK, but WHEN?
    That was not possible in 1940, because the RAF won the Blitz over England. And even with a Luftwaffe victory, the germans did not have enough ships to cross the Channel with an army, and ressuply it on ground.
    And we all know Hitler had other plans for 1941's summer...
     
  10. Yankee

    Yankee Member

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    14 July 1940 was suposed to have been S-day (assuming all was going well) of course as reality would have the Luftwaffe ended up tangled up with the RAF. But the Germans were confistscating barges from all over Europe (thats alot of barges) and they were being deposisted in Ports along the french coast. Since the English didnt have any real permenent beach defenses the barges wouldnt have faced that much trouble.

    Had what was left of the RAF attacked the Invasion fleet they would have played right into the Germans hands they would have been lured into the sky to be shotdown by the Germans (along with German Paratroopers landing and capturing airfield close to the coast the previous night) and the English would have moved what was left of the RAF back further from the front where it would have had its back up against the wall..and it would have played out from there.

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  11. CoWBoY MoRoN

    CoWBoY MoRoN Member

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    I dont think so. Barges aren't enough to move an army one side of the Channel to the other, D Day was not made with barges. An army at war need very strong logistical support, and it would have been easy for the RAF or Royal Navy to sunk light german boats full of soldiers. The Brits had subs too!

    BTW, it's july the 16 1940 that Hitler ordered the preparation and, if necessary, the execution of a plan for the invasion of Great Britain. Göring issued the "eagle day" directive august the 2, and the attack against RAF early warning RADARs and airfield stopped after more than a month, then Germans shifted to the Blitz against English main cities. In september, it was already too late to plan an amphibious assault against UK. Germans never actually tried to invade England: in Hitler's strange mind after France campain there was no more battle in the West, because English "will surrender". He was already focusing on his great plan: Barbarossa, the ultimate crusade against Bolchevism.
    He left England to submarines and bombers, maybe his first strategic fault of the war.
     
  12. Yankee

    Yankee Member

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    the number of barges ferrying across the channel would have been way too much for the a few subs to have any real impact on. The germans of course were going to be securing a number of airfields after the first several days and would be able to provide masssive logsitical support through an airlift (remember this was before the Ju-52 fleet was destroyed) so it would have been putting up some pretty solid numbers as far as logistics go, and i dont think the English could have been able to hold out for more then a couple weeks offering only a few sparatic un cordinated armored counter attacks, the english were banking on using their armor spread thin over the GHQ line rather then the armored columns effective for engaging superior German armor and launching counter attacks.

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  13. CoWBoY MoRoN

    CoWBoY MoRoN Member

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    I'm sorry but I have to disagree.
    German's simply didn't have enough TIME to do it in 1940. They didn't have enough boats (barges or whatever) ready to cross the Channel, that's a fact. To destroy the RAF take a lot of time, and destroy the Royal Navy was impossible. Amphibious operations are not easy ones, it require special units and equipement the German didn't have. Trying to cross the Channel in autumn without adequate preparation, under unfriendly weather, and against terrible naval odds was a huge risk.
    And that's why they didn't even try.
     
  14. Yankee

    Yankee Member

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    Yes as history would have it the RAF stopped the invasion, but had it been pushed just a little bit back furthur the invasion would have been feasible. The Royal navy was useless as far as daylight operations go had the Luftwaffe had control of the skies. The Royal navy would have only been able to mount nightime raids as explained above with smaller and faster ships. The Royal Navy coming out by daylight to challenge the ferry operation would have been suicidal.

    The Royal Navys battleships and heavy cruisers only purpose had the invasion occured would have been to evacuate the Royal family and churchill to the Caribean.
     
  15. AndyW

    AndyW Member

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    <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>
    Originally posted by Yankee:

    The English had selected several Nazi sympathizers that were rather Moderate and they felt could meet with the Germans and negiotate a peace while the Royal Family and Churchill fled to the Caribean (because the Canadians would allow the Royal family but didnt want Churchill running the war from Ottawa) From there the English would wait..
    <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

    That’s new to me. Do you have more info on this?

    I always thought that the Brits (speaking generally, of course) were extremely motivated to defend their island against the “Nazis”. After all, they give clear signals that they won’t sue for peace (sinking the French fleet, preparing gas attacks against invasion fleet, building up home guard units etc.).

    Headline of an English newspaper after the fall of France: “France capitulates! We’re in the Final!”
     
  16. AndyW

    AndyW Member

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    <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>
    Originally posted by CoWBoY MoRoN:

    I'm sorry but I have to disagree.
    German's simply didn't have enough TIME to do it in 1940. They didn't have enough boats (barges or whatever) ready to cross the Channel, that's a fact. To destroy the RAF take a lot of time, and destroy the Royal Navy was impossible. Amphibious operations are not easy ones, it require special units and equipement the German didn't have. Trying to cross the Channel in autumn without adequate preparation, under unfriendly weather, and against terrible naval odds was a huge risk.
    And that's why they didn't even try.
    <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

    I have to agree with Cowboy. Germans had absolutely no plans how to deal with the British homeland until they “suddenly” arrived at the channel. Hence no strategic airfleet to “soften” GB, not even an airfleet to gain air supremacy over Britain, no more navy (that was crippled at Norway), not enough subs for a blockade, no sea transport, no other means of ensuring a continuous stray of logistics over the channel, no experience in amphibious operations, not even war games or tactical instructions (Sea Lion was considered as being “a extended crossing of a river” !), no strategy at all. An invasion of GB was never intended or on Germany’s political agenda.

    Forcing Britain into peace was the only “real” alternative for Gy in 1940. Churchill and the British people stand firm, which is _the_ credit which have to be given to them. Even German generals were happy for _not_ having to invade GB in 1940. They knew that this would have ended up in a decisive defeat.

    If Hitler ever intended to launch Sea Lion, than he changed his plans soon:

    29 July 1940:“Hitler has decided to attack Soviet Russia a.s.a.p.” (Jodl)
    30 July 1940: Navy advises against carrying out Sea Lion in 1940
    31 July 1940:“Decision: Russia need to be finished. Spring 1941. The sooner we smash Russia, the better” (Hitler)

    Regards
     
  17. Yankee

    Yankee Member

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    although the Channel isnt that wide make no mistake it is a difficult feat to cross. Only 3 men in history have been able to take their armies across, Caesar, William the conquer in 1066, and Eike in 44.

    The Germans may not have been ready for an invasion but the English wernt ready repell them. In some cases i have read accounits of English home gaurds being armed with spears because weapons were in such short supply.

    As far as the post war english government went it was going to consist of Nazi sympathizers, at the outbreak of war like in most countries the allies promptly arrested all vocal nazi supporters. I cant find the full version of the invasion of England that gives some names for potenatiol leaders, soon as i do it i will post it, i can only find the abridged version of the book which is real short and doesnt have a post war thing. But anyhow the English were going to release all these guys from prison and hope one could negotiate a good government with the Germans.



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  18. COMET

    COMET Member

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    I think there was a plan to land on Great Britain. And as a proove I have several pictures take by RAF showing a hudge mass of german barges on Calai's Harbour. They even prepare some special armoured cars, and tanks, mainly amphibious.

    The brits knew this situation, and they prepared the defenses of the main railways, Hihgways, beaches, towns, even the british governement was ready to go to Canada.

    The point is that the Germans didn't really wanted to make an invasion of UK. It was the best way to waste important troops and armoured divisions, instead of using them on the future East front.

    Nevertheless, if the Blitz was succeed, and the RAF was anihilated, they probably had launch the invasion.

    COMET
     
  19. Yankee

    Yankee Member

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    The English knew they couldnt defend a broad front thats why they wanted to have control of strategic strongpoints and likely landing points although many beaches simply were left ungaurded and abandoned.
     
  20. Otto

    Otto Rested & Resupplied with MREs. Staff Member WW2|ORG Editor

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    I'm thinking that the Wehrmacht would have invaded had they gained air superiority. The invasion would have taken place with a land and air power attacking a naval power. Kind of like a fight between a whale and a lion, who wins? It depends on where they fight. Germany did have enough barges and equipment to get an army across the channel. The german Heer was a skilled group of improvisors that bridged river after river with limited equipment. But the channel is no river, the invasion would have been subjected to the entire might of the British Navy, it is likely that bulk of the RN would have been sacrificed to stop the invasion. In any case, I can forsee the destruction of the RN and the bulk of the landing force. But even if German losses were 250,000 men, they could accept this, they suffered similar losses several times, especially of the Russian front. The loss of the RN would make Britain easy prey for German u-boat warfare. That's if the invasion doesn't get them first. Remember, Britains loss of most of her armour at Dunkirk meant that even one Panzer division in Britain would wreak havok.
     
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