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Sept. 1, 2, 3 1939

Discussion in 'Alternate History' started by gurfinkle, Jan 12, 2019.

  1. lwd

    lwd Ace

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    I think that was an admission that his arguments weren't holding up to the facts and logic presented to counter them. It does IMO highlight the value of forums like this. I'd rather see these people and their beliefs held up to the light of fact, logic, and reason than be passed around in circles where the opportunity to refute them is minimal.
     
  2. Black6

    Black6 Member

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    " Too late. I've already given up. I did benefit from the discussions on this thread and my thread. I was a little surprised and disappointed, but not too much, at the tenor (the drift of something spoken or written) of the 'discussion'"

    What he is politely saying in a nut shell is that we (sane people) are "sheeple" who believe the conventional narrative do not possess open minds that can embrace the real truth.
    Background... I discovered the totally unfiltered, unmoderated world of Holocaust deniers on YouTube comments. If you go to youtube and look up Holocaust denial, Auschwitz gas chambers, etc. and read the comments section, you will see exactly what I mean. Also, try looking a this 6.5 hour opus of pure BS called "The Greatest Story Never Told" which is obviously the video version of Mr. Hoggan's fantasy world.
    Deniers are multiplying in the cyber age and most have co-opted any conspiracy theory that seems to offer support for their anti-Semitic views. I have seen uncritical support for Suvorov, Bacque, Irving, etc. "Eisenhower's Death Camps", Soviet offensive plans theory, Dresden was a war crime, Jews control the US, UK and USSR, etc.
    There are legions of these people on youtube, I highly recommend you guys take a look. None of them read, they just watch videos, drink the Kool Aid and recruit.
     
  3. Kai-Petri

    Kai-Petri Kenraali

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    How could Hitler make negotiations with the west when he had made decisions and agreements with Stalin to go on with his war? None.
     
  4. lwd

    lwd Ace

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    Hitler had not problem negotiating agreements he had no intention of living up to.
     
  5. GunSlinger86

    GunSlinger86 Well-Known Member

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    Lord Halifax was a Fascist sympathizer who was part of a British society group that was partially based on fascist sympathies. I forget the name. In the mid-30s The British upper classes felt Hitler was defending Western Capitalism against Soviet Communism which in Churchill's own words should have been strangled in its cradle. The head of the bank of England in 1935-36 stated that Hitler was defending capitalism. Nazism was free enterprise and competition with labor suppression and regulation from the government. The bankers and finance people in the Western capitalist countries favored that system as it suppressed the worker, kept wages low, and profits high.
     
  6. GunSlinger86

    GunSlinger86 Well-Known Member

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    The Cliveden Set was the name of the group.
     
  7. RichTO90

    RichTO90 Well-Known Member

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    No, Nazis were not advocates for "free enterprise". Next we'll be hearing they were "socialists"...
     
  8. OpanaPointer

    OpanaPointer I Point at Opana Staff Member Patron   WW2|ORG Editor

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    Odd, WSC used Halifax throughout WWII, as Ambassador to the US. Not the position I'd put a fascist sympathizer in.
     
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  9. GunSlinger86

    GunSlinger86 Well-Known Member

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    Sir Richard Overy, Guy Walters, and other academic historians and insiders themselves have stated that Nazi Germany's economy was based on competition and free enterprise. Spin it how you want the Nazi state did not own the businesses. Yes they had controls, but so did the New Deal and US wartime economy, as the situation of the Great Depression and the need for war production called for more of a "hands on" economy.
     
  10. RichTO90

    RichTO90 Well-Known Member

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    Look up Reichswerke Hermann Göring, I.G. Farben Industrie, and Vereinigte Stahlwerke AG. Then tell me about competition and free enterprise in Nazi Germany...
     
  11. OpanaPointer

    OpanaPointer I Point at Opana Staff Member Patron   WW2|ORG Editor

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    The industrialists cooperated willingly with the fascist regime. They got rich. Those that didn't got to spend the summer in ... camp.
     
  12. GunSlinger86

    GunSlinger86 Well-Known Member

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    Herman Goering Werks was set up intentionally to compete with the private firms, because Herman Goering Werks used German iron ore, which was more affordable, as opposed to the private enterprise counterparts in competition with HGW. I just read a book about that. IG Farben was a private cartel that had government help, and they also had partners in America and an American subsidiary and SS help. The SS also had their own enterprises and they weren't considered state-owned. Krupp, Messerschmidt, Porsche, Thyssen were not owned by the Nazis. They all got generous contracts, as did every other war economy of other nations. The Nazi party or Nazi government did not own those means of production.
     
  13. GunSlinger86

    GunSlinger86 Well-Known Member

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    HGW was a protectionist idea for the German economy to become self-sufficient with iron ore, and for companies to stop buying imported iron ore from Scandinavia which was of higher quality. HGW used German Iron Ore, though lower quality, was more affordable.
     
  14. GunSlinger86

    GunSlinger86 Well-Known Member

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    That's what Fascism is, the blending of corporate/industrialist and government power. A dictatorship resulting in this partnership, suppressing labor to keep costs low and profits high. The Ford and GM plants in Nazi Germany that operated before and during the war were not owned by the Nazi government. That was competition and private enterprise that helped the Nazi war effort.
     
  15. RichTO90

    RichTO90 Well-Known Member

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    Um, no, sorry. Reichswerke Hermann Göring was set up as a state-financed conglomerate to bypass the capitalist funding and industrialist operations in order to fulfill Hitler's desire for self-sufficiency. The Salzgitter mines it depended on were lower quality ore and more difficult and expensive to extract, which is why private industry would not touch it. It then acquired Rheinmetal and Alkett as well in order to give the Nazis a compliant manufacturer for military orders. Later, industrial concerns in Austria and the Protectorate (Skoda and BMM) were added. Nor was the Nazi government contracting policy "competitive". Instead, it created shell companies as part of the Verwertungsgesellschaftfiir Montanindustrie mbH, which was under the direct control of the Heereswaffenamt. IG Farben and Vereinigte Stahlwerke AG were also part of the Montan scheme, controlling webs of interconnected industries at government bidding, Government finance and control to undercut private industry is the opposite of competition.

    The industrialists and capitalists remained happy since they continued to profit and the Nazis kept their taxes low, instead employing deficit spending and various Ponzi investment schemes to finance their schemes.
     
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  16. GunSlinger86

    GunSlinger86 Well-Known Member

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    The industrialists and capitalists remained happy because they still owned their own businesses and profited as you said due to low taxes and favorable contracts. Every government has an aspect of government bidding. The economic crisis of the Great Depression led almost every major country to employ more "hands on" methods. The New Deal, National Socialism, Fascism were all similar in their government intervention into private business, but not taking them over and giving them to the state and government itself.
     

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