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Some great Spanish Civil War Links

Discussion in 'Prelude to War & Poland 1939' started by JeffinMNUSA, Mar 23, 2010.

  1. JeffinMNUSA

    JeffinMNUSA Member

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    Spanish Civil War History
    I think this is of a decidedly Pro Republican/Anarchist bent.
    Here's an ebook; http://books.google.com/books?id=2O...snum=7&ved=0CB4Q6AEwBjhG#v=onepage&q=&f=false
    I am about halfway into Beevor account and yeah this was the beginning of WWII in Europe.
    And here is a rather harsh read of the whole situation; http://esr.ibiblio.org/?p=94 The author thinks it a foregone conclusion that the Stalinists would have seized power in Spain had the Republic prevailed.
    JeffinMNUSA
     
  2. efestos

    efestos Member

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    Stanley George Payne

    PAUL PRESTON

    Ian GIBSON

    Anthony Beevor

    IMHO: These are the authors in english. One more or less neutral, three more or less leftish.

    You could find the Beevor's "Spanish civil war" in p2p webs.

    An example:

    I've read "FRANCO" of Preston. He is able to write about the 1934' revolution in Asturias without mention of the Monks, Clerks, Policemen, etc the Red (PSOE) killed in this failed revolution.

    You could look for "Ley de defensa de la República" later "Ley de orden público" The goverment could dissolve a political party, banishing someone ... without court intervention. The left aproved thouse laws, very similar to the Hitler´s Reichstag Fire Decree The Right (Radicales ...) in the goverment 1933 -1936 didn´t stablish a dictatorship although there was a failed revolution in 1934.

    In 1936 the socialist and the anarchist started again to kill people, without intervention of the State. Azaña (President of the Republic) refused to do anything. In July 1936 three policemen (Guardia de Asalto) killed the Right leader Calvo Sotelo. No one was arrested. The right revolt was yet runnig, but so many people decided to join it after that murder. FRANCO was one of them (Paul Preston, Franco page 166 spanish).

    About the Blog you mentioned: In 1936 The Civil Guard was loyal to the Republic this was the main reason the "coup de etat" failed and my grandparents went to a blody civil war.

    Both parts become evil. And probably the Blogger is right, if the Republica prevaled we'd have had a "Democartic Republic" East Europe fashion.
     
  3. JeffinMNUSA

    JeffinMNUSA Member

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    Efestos;
    Beevor does delineate how the Western arms embargo forced the Republic to buy arms and seek assistance from the Soviets; which put the communists in the government in a much stronger position. The writing was probably on the wall when the NKVD advisors appeared. It is kind of puzzling that Stalin did not back his side more strongly-"did not want to antagonize Hitler"? Hmmm-maybe Stalin was just outspent? US business was bankrolling Franco as the Axis was also. Veterans of the Spanish Civil War from both sides show up later all over the Eastern Front. Here is a Partisan account where the author worked with some Red German Vets fighting for the Armia Ludowa in Poland-some impressive fellows!; http://www.isbs.com/partnumber.asp?cid=27365&pnid=290366 On the other side there was the Spanish Blue Division-some impressive soldiers also. SO impressive that it is said that Hitler nixed an invasion of Spain because of the Blues' performance at Leningrad.
    JeffinMNUSA
    PS. Ordered this one off Amazon; http://kunikovsreviews.blogspot.com/2007/02/hitlers-spanish-legion-blue-division-in.html Spanish cabelleros fighting a mechanized war??!! This I have got to check out.
     
  4. Spaniard

    Spaniard New Member

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    Just a quick comment Not only the Eastern front, but the Western front Also. It's to be noted that the Liberation of Paris was spearheaded by a Complete Spaniard, French Regiment.

    Spanish is a Language, not a person or especially a place, a commen mistake made by many.
     
  5. JeffinMNUSA

    JeffinMNUSA Member

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    Spaniard;
    And it seems that the French Resistance was really not so French;
    1939-1945: Spanish Resistance in France | libcom.org

    Here is a great quote;
    "How many lands have my feet trod and my eyes seen! What terrible scenes of desolation of death I witnessed in those years of continual war. Adverse circumstances had made us, anti-militarists, the most battle hardened soldiers of the Allied armies" - Murillo de la Cruz



    JeffinMNUSA
     
  6. Spaniard

    Spaniard New Member

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    That's 110% right! I can't remember the book I read, but around 60,000 Spaniard escaped to France after Spain's Civil War.

    Ok I just checked your link, It is a little known fact that over 60,000 Spanish exiles fought alongside the French Resistance,
    in addition to thousands of others who served in the regular forces of the Free French army.

    Ok It states Over 60,000.

    The first units to enter Paris and reach the Hotel de Ville were from the 9th Tank Company of the French 2nd Armoured Division. But the lead half tracks bore the names of Spanish battlefields -"Guadalajara"; "Teruel"; "Madrid" and "Ebro". They were manned by Spaniards, of whom there were 3,200 serving in the 2nd Armoured.

    French 2nd Division (World War II: Facts, Discussion Forum, and Encyclopedia Article)

    [Photo] French 2nd Armored Division troops and vehicles parading through the Arc du Triomphe down the Avenue des Champs-Élysées, Paris, France, 26 Aug 1944 | World War II Database


    Paris honours the Spanish heroes of the French 2nd Armoured Division

    Paris honours the Spanish heroes of the French 2nd Armoured Division - Paris.fr

    Spain in World War II: Facts, Discussion Forum, and Encyclopedia Article



    Forgotten Heroes
    Spanish Resistance in France 1939-45
    Forgotten Heroes : Spanish Resistance in France 1939-45
     
  7. JeffinMNUSA

    JeffinMNUSA Member

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    Spaniard;
    I came across something interesting in another Eastern Front Partisan book a while back;
    The defiant: a true story of escape ... - Google Books
    "The Defiant" by Sholam Yoran. The author went on a special mission led by A Soviet Major and a group of 10 internationals he describes as "Spanish, French and Germans." He comments on what a thoroughly professional outfit this was. Well the mission got surrounded in a swamp and how they escaped was absolutely brilliant-the internationals donned German uniforms, had the men remove their red stars and they posed as a German led Vlasovite unit. They then walked right through the Axis lines and even wangled some free meals. The internationals were said to have all spoken perfect German. Who were these Spaniards, French and Germans? Just a wild guess but I would think that they came by their professionalism in the mountains of Spain.
    JeffinMNUSA
     
  8. Spaniard

    Spaniard New Member

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  9. efestos

    efestos Member

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    JAJAJA, One of these men, Blue Division, was a close friend of grandpa, this guy loose an arm in Rusia. The best place to seat in the rusian steppe were the anti-tank mines. The guy weight arround 70 kg, the mine exploit over 80 kg...

    SPANIARD:
    I guess western democracies did not sold arms to the Republic for two reassons:

    A) They known the kind of people rulled the Republica.

    CHURCHILL WWII ... About spanish civil war, "If these people won in Britain would kill me, my family and my relatives".

    B) They couldn´t pay. Sure, the HACIENDA (finaces) Minister (Negrín, SOCIALIST) sended the gold stockpile of the country to de USSR. Without the knowledge of the rest of the goverment. It was the fourth gold stockpile in the world.

    AND Google translation: MADRID November 1936

    The bloodbath started in july'36 and in november there are NKVD agents ordering to kill my fellows.

    Just for fun

    Spanish pilots in the USSR
     
  10. JeffinMNUSA

    JeffinMNUSA Member

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    Efestos;
    I got a little bit further into Beevor last night and...well it seems that Iosif Stalin covertly seized total control of the Spanish Republic and the "coalition" became just some window dressing to appease the Western media. Beevor is citing some recently released Russian documents and well...has rewritten the entire history of the period in light of these revelations. So who really killed the Republican dream?
    More on this later,
    JeffinMNUSA
    PS. And Ernest Hemmingway was a drunken old fool.
     
  11. efestos

    efestos Member

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    A personal response:

    One of my grandparents was a conservative trader, sold matirials to the cooperative (socialist) which manufactured shoes in his hometown, in competition with local merchants. The only incident that the workers used to whistle "the international" when he went there.

    My other grandfather, Doctor, joined the Falange on July 19 after Falangist took fire the furniture in his office on July 18, was a personal matter. His brother was in the rail Union - UGT. So the doctor saved the lives of two patients. He couldn't do any thing for the mayor.

    The first never told me he shooted anyone during the civil war. He was an excellent marksman. An he was in first line.

    The doctor told me that in a civil war is impossible to distinguish the wounded from either side, they arrive covered in Sh...and blood, in rags, and call their mothers by the same names.

    I think the vast majority of Spanish people wanted to live in peace. And the extremists, the blindness of political moderates from both sides and fear drove them to the tragedy.

    PS. I think Mr Eric Arthur Blair knew our war better than Hemminway. But probably all of as prefer to drink a pair of beers with the last. Well Mr Hernest would not drink only a pair of beers.:D
     
  12. JeffinMNUSA

    JeffinMNUSA Member

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    Efestos;
    It wasn't a "Civil War" or at least it sure didn't end up that way. It became a proxy war between Hitler and Stalin with the Spanish people caught in the middle.
    JeffinMNUSA
    PS. Ernest was firmly on the side of the "Republicans" and ignored a lot of things that were happening as the situation got uglier. He was trying to sell books and be a hero after all, and bestsellers need "good guys vs. bad guys." "Bad guys vs. bad guys" does not market so well. Alchohol and ideology are what he used to blind himself to the inconvenient facts.
    PS. Say what you like about Franco but he did keep Hitler at arm's length-and Spain out of direct involvement in WWII-and maybe deserves a bit of rehabilitation at this late date.
     
  13. efestos

    efestos Member

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    I think you missunderstood me, my apologies, English isn't my native language.

    I would NOT be here if the reds had won the Spanish Civil war. They would have kill one or two grandfather's and one or two grandmothers. They were medium-class little land owners, it was very dangerous in the red zone.

    My wife´s grandpa survived the war because he run faster than the comunist to arrive to an embassy. The red killed the father of this man.

    I don't have any sympathy for the Spanish reds.

    And well what you say about Hitler and Stalin... is almost true... but Franco, was patriot, as you said he avoid direct involvement in WWII. :D
     
  14. Spaniard

    Spaniard New Member

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    I found these

    The 250.Infanterie-Division was formed in Spain during the last week of June 1941, immediately after the German attack on the Soviet Union.Disbanded in Fall of 1943 and troops largely sent back to Spain
    Private, Inf div 250th , USSR june 1942

    [​IMG]

    Feldgrau :: 250.Infanterie-Division

    Perhaps one of the most successful volunteer contingents to have fought for Germany,in terms of fierce fighting spirit and battleworthiness,were the Spanish Volunteers.

    Note this is a Link; Spain

    Spanish Blue Division Military and Feldpost History.blue division troops
    [​IMG]
    "AXIS & FOREIGN LEGION MILITARIA


    Watch this
    YouTube - Panzerargentino's Channel





























    [​IMG]
    Angel Salas Larrazabal - A Fighter Ace in Two Wars.

    WW II ACE STORIES



    The dispute between Spain and Poland concerning the Polish fighters in the Spain's civil war?
    Here is the English link: http://www.eurotopics.net/en/presses...4a3c475bc9a583

    Here is the Spanish one: http://www.elpais.com/articulo/espan...pepinac_12/Tes
     
  15. JeffinMNUSA

    JeffinMNUSA Member

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    Efestes;
    Perdon senior-digo despacio in Ingliss y uso el transladores de la computadore. Perdon mi Espanol. Su Ingliss es mejor a mi "Espanol del mercado"!
    The book says that the Soviet NKVD was running the Republic in the later days of the war. The author offers proof. Thank you for your most important family stories! Franco was also a Patriot because he stopped the Soviet NKVD in Spain! Franco was also a Patriot because he would not do as Hitler said. My opinion of Francisco Franco has changed from reading this book.
    El libro dice que la NKVD soviética estaba corriendo la República en los últimos días de la guerra. El autor ofrece la prueba. Gracias por sus historias de la familia más importante! Franco fue también un patriota, porque se detuvo la NKVD soviética en España! Franco fue también un patriota, porque no haría lo que Hitler dijo. Mi opinión de Francisco Franco ha cambiado de la lectura de este libro.

    JEffinMNUSA
    PS. Which does not mean that Francisco Franco was an angel. He started all the troubles by bringing the army of Africa over to Spain to start the rebellion against an elected government. When World War 2 was over he kept the dictatorship of Spain running for 30 years.
    Lo que no significa que Francisco Franco fue un ángel. Empezó a todos los problemas por lo que el ejército de África a España para iniciar la rebelión contra un gobierno elegido. Cuando la Primera Guerra Mundial 2 se mantuvo durante la dictadura de España funcionando durante 30 años.
     
  16. efestos

    efestos Member

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    Doesn't matter. If I may make a warning: FRANCO was NOT a good person, Just and example In the colonial war in Marocco He made shot a soldier for complain about the food. .

    A tale about the Blue Division. A friend of grandpa was asked to join the division, he refused. The only one in his unit (La Legion. Tercio Juan de Austria). The surname of that guy was "Forteza" so he was direct direct descendant of Jewish converts to Christianity. Called xuetes in Mallorca (Med's Island Spain). Two years later his commandant agreed he was right.


    SPANIARD: I really would like to know the biographies of the Polish Pilots. I guess they were comunists as almost all the International Brigadists. :D
     
  17. JeffinMNUSA

    JeffinMNUSA Member

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    Efestos;
    I understand you perfectly. Well at least quite well-Su Ingless es mejor a mi Espanol del mercado y para mi Espanol con mis amigos mejicanos.
    Franco was not a good guy. The NKVD SOVIETS who took over the Republic were much worse.
    Ernest Hemmingway would argue but Ernest was a drunken poet looking to make money. And he was not such a good American writer. Only told the University people what they wanted to hear. His books do not stand the test of truth and will pass away.
    So who were "The Good GUys" in the Spanish story of 1936-1945? The Spanish people were the good guys. The real Spanish people who fought and suffered on both sides.
    I must read more on this fascinating story.
    JeffinMNUSA
    PS. A computer translation;
    Conocí a un estudiante de mi esposa en la Universidad en 1985 y que era de España. Estábamos comiendo y le pregunté sobre Lorca, la guerra civil y Franco. Yo esperaba que dicen cosas malas de Franco, como todo el mundo en las Universidades de los Estados Unidos ha hecho desde 1937. Ella dijo que Franco había salvado a España de la comunista y fue un gran hombre. Hablaba con total convicción, y de lo que estaba seguro era la experiencia de la familia. Me impresionó, y los profesores todo lo que había dicho sobre la Guerra Civil española cayó en cuestión.
     
  18. Spaniard

    Spaniard New Member

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    So would I for now thats all I found thought it was interesting so I posted the Article with the link. I hate to guess on these matters I'll take a closer look see what I can dig up. It's the first time I ever heard of this!:confused:

    My Grandfather was a Captain and fought for the Resistance in Spain's Civil War and he was no Rogó! Bilbao I believe was the last to fall to Franco. In my area they hated the Fascists nor did they want anything to do with Communists, thats what my father told me. They were just fighting against Franco.
     
  19. Spaniard

    Spaniard New Member

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    Ok I found Polish volunteers in the Spanish Civil War!

    [​IMG]
    Flag of the unit with the famous motto For our freedom and yours and declaring allegiance to Soviet Republic of Poland, showing communist allegiance of the volunteers. I Guess you were Right!

    Polish volunteers in the Spanish Civil War - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


    [​IMG]
    Operation Magic Fire (28 July 1936 - 29 March 1939)

    Hermann Göring proclaimed the existence of the reconstructed German Luftwaffe on 10 March 1935.Within eighteen months, the new Luftwaffe embarked upon Operation Magic Fire, a program to assist the Nationalists in the Spanish Civil War.

    Military Aspects of the Spanish Civil War


    [​IMG]
    Nationalist troops enter Santander on August 26, 1937

    Due to the Franco-British arms embargo, the Government of the Republic could receive material aid and could purchase arms only from the Soviet Union. These arms included 1,000 aircraft, 900 tanks, 1,500 artillery pieces, 300 armored cars, hundreds of thousands of small arms, and 30,000 tons of ammunition (some of which was defective). To pay for these armaments the Republicans used U.S. dollars 500 million in gold reserves. At the start of the war, the Bank of Spain had the world's fourth largest reserve of gold, about U.S. dollars 750 million,[6] although some assets were frozen by the French and British governments. The Soviet Union also sent more than 2,000 personnel, mainly tank crews and pilots, who actively participated in combat, on the Republican side.

    http://www.newworldencyclopedia.org/entry/Spanish_Civil_War

    The above link has good refrences.


    Aircraft that didn't participate in the Spanish Civil war
    OK, I guess that's a fairly meaningless heading that needs some explanation. This section is an attempt to include some information on aircraft that have been reputed to have taken part in the Spanish Civil War, but which, as far as I can ascertain, didn't. It's quite likely that several of the aircraft mentioned above should be in this section. I have also included a few types that nearly took part, and have tried to give an explanation for the inclusion of each aircraft in this section below each type.

    http://www.zi.ku.dk/personal/drnash/model/spain/didnt.html
     
  20. efestos

    efestos Member

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    I guess Rogó is ROJO (red) :p . Probably your granpa fought with the basque nationalist, or was in the symmetrical situation of mines (compulsive recruit). Grandpa was there, in the North whith the "fascist" fortunately he was a Doctor, so he shoted none.

    Bilbao falled in Jun 19 1937 , the war ended in april 1 1939. The main battle of the Spanish civil war was the B of Ebro river in 1938.

    About your grandpa´s fellows (traslation from Wiki)
    Franco appreciated the gesture with harsh repression, contrary to what General Mola Vidal had agreed with them. They were (are) catholics.

    PS: there are 8 to 12 hours of diference between the States and here so I can´t reply in real time, if you see me in the forum, I'm near to go to sleep. My apologises. Jeffin.
     

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