Southern France had happened before Normandy?

Okay heres my what if.....

What if....the Invasion of Southern France had happened before the invasion in Normandy?

Granted, in reality it was a stunning success seeing how fruitless the German defense of the region was in August of 1944. However, what if instead of the allies landing at Anzio/ Nettuno they had landed in the French Riviera near St. Tropez?

I believe the allies could have made it stick. If you think about the terrain in the French Riviera region during early 1944 there were units there but, they were being diverted to Italy to stem the push up the boot of Italy via the Appennines into SE France. The terrain is level with no cliffs in the St. Tropez region.

Heres how I envision it would and I think could have unveiled...

Phase 1: From November 1943 to Early January 1944, the U.S. 8th, 9th, 12th, and 15th Air Forces would knock out rail hubs, communication centers, fuel depots, ammunition dumps..etc....really mess up the works for the Germans logistically in the regions....

Phase 2: On the 22nd of January, the British 8th Army faints an attack on the right flank of the German Gustav Line. The British continuously digging in for very inch, reluctantly demands the Germans move support into the area to help push them out of their fortified positions.
However, on January 23rd, by this point when they do, the U.S. 5th Army's 34th, 26th, and 88th Infantry Divisions hit from the right of the Gustav Line by passing, the and NOT bombing the Monte Cassio abbey and quickly moving around to the extreme right flank collapsing them into a pocket and once contained and secured they would push onto Rome and relieve the Anzio region if needed. Early on the same day the, 1st and 3rd Ranger Battalions land and move inland to secure key areas around the beachhead. Also a little further inland the 82nd Airborne Division does a day light drop behind the lines into the Anzio region and at around 6 a.m. the 36th, 45th and 85th Infantry Divisions quickly follow suit to solidify the beachhead there and if possible begin the move northward toward Rome.

Phase 3: Then on January 30th, 1944 in the early morning hours the 509th PIR makes an early morning drop far inland, 1st SSF, and the 2nd and 4th Ranger Bn.'s move on shore to clear obstructions an secure key installations before the main landing. At around 6 a.m. the U.S. 1st, 3rd, and 9th Infantry Divisions hit the beaches at St. Tropez moving inland quickly. By this time with so much pressure being put on the forward positions of the Germans in Italy their Rome garrison units being called to the front will have to pull units out of the line near St. Tropez to stem the tide. However, being in the open on the move will make them easy targets for the U.S. 9th, 12th, and 15th Air Forces bomber and fighter units in the area flying from fowards airfields.

Phase 4: On February 13th, 1944 the U.S. 5th and British 8th Armys now having captured and secured Rome and having linked up with the forces coming up from the Anzio region with new forward airfields will now have complete and total air supremacy and cover, over the further push northward to the French Riviera and French border with Italy via the Apennines.

Phase 5: On May 18th, 1944 the U.S. 5th and British 8th Armies now having linked up with the U.S. 7th Army forces in the south of France begin the push northward toward Germany.

Phase 6: The 6th, 12th and 21st Army Groups land in Normandy on June 6th, 1944(right on schedule!

The rest is history but, the war will be over shortly after January 1945...preferably on January 31st, 1945...

What do you guys think of this scenario?

Regards,
MARNE

 

January is mid winter.

Still unpleasant in the French Riviera but Italy became mud-bound. Off the Riviera coast, the Mistral, a strong northerly wind, made landings harder from approx 1 October each year.

The Air Force failed to stop German supply in Italy, how would they succeed in interdicting Southern France?

Are you hooking to the West of Cassino (through the mountains sth of the Liri R) or east of Cassino and through the Italian Alps?

The Rangers & 82 Airborne would have been wiped out. The 3+ Divs which held Anzio barely managed to survive. And a daylight drop would be open to heavy losses, Allied air did not own the skies in the area.

The British position on the east coast was one of taking river after river, easily contained by the German forces on the spot. And if the 8th Army concentrated there they could not relieve US units on the Cassino front (As in real life.)

Where does the lift for Sthn France come from, part of the problem with Anzio was the limited lift. And what do you have as follow up, the French were not quite ready, and unproved in modern battle at the time. 85 & 88 US had just arrived, dangerous to rely on untried troops as your reserve.

Where do your Strategic & Tactical Air Forces base, plus the troops carriers for your sacrificial Para Rgt. Corsica wasnt big enough, though it continued to grow.

With no Normandy campaign the Wermacht could have sent substantial forces to Southern France, well out of range of the England based Tactical Air Forces which caused such havoc around Normandy. Plus some of the units sent to attack the DDay beaches cames from Sthn France (i.e 17SS PzGr Div, LXXXVI Corps HQ, a Pz Div& 4 Infantry Divs) so the thin forces available in August 44 could have been much stronger.

I would consider, IMHO, if all went to plan, that if the Allies could advance to Rome as easily as you propose they could continue up the leg and not need the landings in Sthn France at that time. Probably of more use as a threat than as an attack. Should the main thrust be held up it would still be an option, in better weather, with stronger support.

 

Okay heres a map of the Operation...Operation Zeus January -May 1944 is the setting...

This is a visual approximation of what would have been planned to happen....



Regards,
MARNE

 

Doesnt answer any of the problems set.

 

Granted.

However, the map is just an illustration of what is suppose to happen....after all this is just a "what if?"

Umm.... but to answer your questions....

Weather: Okay, this is a hypothises that the weather was "cooperative" so to speak...this is as if the rain and mud we all know was there wasn't a factor.

As for the problem with a landing on the French Riviera at this time I don't think would have been as big a factor as we might think in this case. When you consider there were landings held in much worse weather conditions throughout the war the problem could be overcome. I mean, just look at Anzio and Normandy the weather wasn't exactly the best but, they still coped and achieved the effect they were meant to have on the enemy. That was a factor in favor of the allies throughout the war...the ability to do the near impossible, to do the most least likely thing possible.

Airpower: It could be made very effective. The 8th and 9th Air Forces don't even have to strike down into Italy to have effect with their bombing. Bombing within France cutting the needed logisitics effects all fronts to some extent especially to Italy which at this time is where once placed under extreme pressure will break all needed supplies will be going once the massive offensive begins. The RAF and the 12th and 15th Air Forces will strike the interior logisitcs of Italy to disrupt the Germans smooth flow of supplies to those units who needed it most as well as support the landings at Anzio and St.Tropez.

The U.S. Air Forces in the vicinity in reality during the war could have done a much better job granted but, a lot of political reasons especially with the Italian governement were to blame to an extent.

The Pescara Pocket: The Americans in the west would be hooking to the east to Pescara to cut off retreating Germans...

The divisions at Anzio wouldn't have been whipped out because those divisions once the area is secured would immediately move in the direction of Rome. As for the English to relieve the Americans it would be the Americans doing the relieveing being that they'd have freeer movement being in the west. The lift for Southern France comes from the same place it did in reality from Corsica. the U.S. 12th Air Force bases itself out of Sardinia and the 15th from Naples.

As for the extra units in Southern France after the quickness of the offensive had started eventually the Germans would be wise enough to withhold their stronger forces in Southern France and not send them into battle one by one to be decimated by the onslaught of the allies moving rapidly up the boot of Italy and resign themselves to makimg a much better organized stand on the Italian/French border.

Granted, the Southern France landing may not be needed in the case you described but, it is there for the possibility a diversionary attack to draw the extra units that would be sent into italy away from the front, thus allowing the 5th U.S. and 8th British Armies to have an easier time coming up the boot of Italy during the offensive. By spreading out the Germans in three different directions they'd be spread too thin to cope with the main assault from the south.

These are just my observations and how they'd be dealt with....

Regards,
MARNE

 

2nd try, Bloody wireless internet connection.

You cant ignore the weather, or the terrain , or the enemy. Battle doent occur in a vacuum.

Overlord & Shingle landings were in good weather, maybe it blew up later (It certainly did at Normandy) but you cannot rely on landings in poor conditions.

Allied Airpower never achieved the results expected of it. In Italy it failed to halt German supplies, as it did in Normandy,In Korea, Vietnam and only got close to succes in Iraq, a desert.

Rome to Pescara is up a 2 lane road over the Alps. As I'll repeat often, the Germans were expert at delaying advances in this terrain. Have a look ata good map, the Italian Peninsula isnt cut out for a Blitzkrieg.

You are landing 2 Ranger Bns & an Airborne Div at Anzio, the germans managed to get around 21,000 troops against the Beachead on DDay, 4000 more on D+1 & a further 16000 on D+2, sufficient to destroy this level of troops.

Eighth Army troops relieved US Forces in the Cassino area (After mark clark tried to destroy the 36th Div) which allowed US troops to concentrate further West (and send some to the UK)

Lift as in shipping, Corsica provides zero.

15th AF would have to base from Foggia, 12AF wouldnt find enough room on Sardinia & Corsica as they had only been in Allied hands for a few months. By August 44 they were better developed.

An Allied landing in Southern France, with no Overlord possible for 5-6 months, would see the Germans concentrate on wiping out this beachead. Without drawing on their forces in Italy they could concentrate 2SS, 9 & 11 Pz, 17SS PzGr from Armee Gruppe G alone. Armee Gruppe B could provide anther 2-3 Pz Divs within 7-14 days, plus units such as 3 & 5 Fj from 7 Armee reserves.

 

Okay,

Now were not ignoring the terrain or the enemy but, I'm simply stating within this "what if" this is as if the weather simply cooperated rather than got messy like it did in the latter part of 1943 early 1944.

As for the landings at Normandy and Shingle both were in rough seas.. in both instances I have spoken to veterans that said that was the biggest hurdle they had getting to the beach during these two landings. Much like the landing in Southern France wuld have been according to the synopsis your described in your previous post.

On the airpower granted it never did achieve it goals. However, here there would be countless sortie flown in support of just this offensive to basically knocking out everything; doesn't matter what they hit just keep poundng the same place over and over until
its out of action...saturation bombing on all targets....low and high level strikes on all targets. Really make the Germans earn it to stay in the region.

Yep. The main road leading into Pescara is two laned however, the closing pocket created by the Americans coming from the west would move further to the north and the come back south linking with the british from the north at Pescara. Making those Germans in the area having fight on three fronts from the west south and north. They wouldn' t be able to hold with that much pressure.

Now at Anzio, if you notice on the map I provided there is a WHOLE lot more forces there than just 1 Airborne Div. and 2 Rngr. Bn.'s. During the landings there. The 82nd Airborne, 85th and 88th Infantry Divisions with the 1st SSF and the 1st and 3rd Ranger Bn.'s would be put ashore to back up the Rangers and the 82nd Airborne Division. Theobjective is once on the beachhead their advance to Rome would begin it wouldn't wait. Not to mention the Germans aren't going to throw forces at a beachhead placing them in a position where they can be hit from two sides by the forces coming toward Rome from Cassino.

In this case on the relieveing of the front; the British X Corp. along with the 34th Division would puch off to the north to link up at Pescara to encirle the troops there. The 9th, 36th and 1st Armored Div.'s would move up toward Rome protecting the encirclement elements left flank.

The 15th is based out of Naples-Foffia area. The 12th which had been in North Africa primarily would move forward to the Corsica and Sardinia region.

As for no lift thats not completely true, there were elements that left Corsica for the Southern France invasion. Granted the infantry contingent came from Naples but, the other half of the force came from Corsica and Sardinia.

As for the forces coming in from the other Armee Gruppes they'd have a hard time getting to the front due to allied air cover in the region considering the Germans won't expose their armor to the Air Forces. It was a good idea for the Germans to hold their Panzers in reserve during the Normandy invasion, because they''d have had the same issues todeal with inwhich they'd have been destroyed piece-meal by the fact they were in the open.

Regards,
MARNE

 

Seems like no-one else has an opinion on this??

 

I don't know Ali....

I guess we're just too much MTO to handle...LOL...

Regards,
MARNE

 

How bout land there in Nov 42 instead of North Africa?

 

Into the valley of death rode the gallant 600....

 

One word....Dieppe!!!!!!!

However, there'd have been at least two things that would have happened in the outcome had we tried that....

One is respect from British because we were both stupid enough and brave enough to at least try. I say this because the Brits were the vets they'd been fighting since 39' and they kind of saw us as the amateurs...the newbies to the war.

Second a BUNCH of dead Americans...not good for the allied high command.

Both are not good...

Regards,
MARNE

 

Dieppe was a trial run wasn't it? not a full fledged invasion.

 

Yep, but could you have managed if it had of been a full fledged invasion....

One word...Massacre!!!

Not good...

Regards,
MARNE

 

So Germans had more men & material in France in 42 than in 44? or is it just that the forces involved in operation torch were not enough to be considered a full fledged invasion?

 

The problem wasnt the Germans in Southern France, in fact Vichy still controlled the southern areas.

To make it as far as the French Riviera the Allied Invasion Fleet would have had to transit an area still under heavy Axis air control based from Corsica, Sardinia, Sicily & Italy. Plus the possibility that the Vichy French would have joined in the Axis attacks, very much an unknown.

This threat would not have lessened as the Allies had too few CV to support the landings and little hope of land based air support.

Finally, being the first big Allied Invasion, it would have suffered from the inexperience of the troops involved AND be more open to a massive Axis counterattack.