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Spain 1936 and communistic victory?

Discussion in 'What If - European Theater - Western Front & Atlan' started by Kai-Petri, Mar 2, 2003.

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  1. Kai-Petri

    Kai-Petri Kenraali

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    Like we know the Spanish civil war ended as victory for Franco. But he got help from from Hitler and Mussolini to win the war, as well the Communists got help from Stalin.

    It can be said that Spain was more important to Hitler and he could not allow the communists to win, but anyway...

    What If Spain was communist as WW2 begun? Would that have changed anything? For example would Spain help Hitler differently as an ally through Stalin by letting German troops attack Gibraltar?
    And as Barbarossa started would German troops enter the rest of Spain?

    ANy ideas welcome!

    ;)
     
  2. dasreich

    dasreich Member

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    I can't see Spain joining the war, no matter what their government is. And if they were communist, I dont see them helping Hitler by letting him take out gibraltar. After the destruction of the civil war, the Spanish could not afford to join a world war.

    I think Spain would have negotiated non-aggression with Germany if they were communist. And Hitler wouldnt invade Spain until at least winning against the USSR first. Occupying the Iberian peninsula means he would have more territory to defend from the Allies. And Spain would certainly not attack Germany. In the end, Spain would have not been in a position to challenge Germany, and Germany would receive little benefit against the USSR by invading them.
     
  3. Kai-Petri

    Kai-Petri Kenraali

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    Any new ideas here?
     
  4. Hands

    Hands Member

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    Actually Hitler wanted to invade Spain after talks with Franco failed to get him onto the Axis side. It was his spy chief Wilhelm Canaris that persuaded Hitler not to go after Spain.

    http://www.orionbooks.co.uk/MP-29301/Hitler's-Spy-Chief.htm

    In my opinion, if Spain was under communist countrol, Hitler would have definitely went after it. No point leaving a potential enemy on it's western flank, not to mention Gibraltar.
     
  5. bigiceman

    bigiceman Member

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    I don't remember hearing about this before. That is avery interesting sub-plot. Too bad he didn't use his access to Hitler to assasinate in the early years.
     
  6. Kai-Petri

    Kai-Petri Kenraali

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    Canaris was also the man who is supposed to have made Franco refuse to co-operate with Hitler on Gibraltar.
     
  7. PzJgr

    PzJgr Drill Instructor

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    Agreed. He could then go after Gibralter and bottle up the british. The conquest of Spain would not have been too difficult since there would be many fascist sympathizers.
     
  8. bigiceman

    bigiceman Member

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    I would think that Spain would have been easy. One of the reasons being that so many young officers in the German Army cut their teeth in Spain and would be familiar with the military infrastructure. They could have exploited that knowledge as well as the Facist angle as well.
     
  9. Hands

    Hands Member

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    Would the conquest of Spain be benefital to the Nazi cause ?

    No Gibraltar base for the British and could effectively choke off the British in the mediterran.

    Also, bases for U-boats closer to the Atlantic sealanes.
     
  10. PzJgr

    PzJgr Drill Instructor

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    You made two major reasons for taking Spain. Also having a communist country in your backyard is dangerous especially if you are considering attacking the home of commusism, USSR. Spain needed to be taken.
     
  11. Hands

    Hands Member

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    What about the British and the France regarding a communist and anti-religion spain ?

    Would they accept a communist victory in Spain ?
     
  12. PzJgr

    PzJgr Drill Instructor

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    Depending on how much of a threat Spain would be. Both the British and French were tired of war, don't think they would have done anything.
     
  13. dasreich

    dasreich Member

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    In 1936, Britain and France had neither the inclination nor even the ability to effectively intervence in Spain. They might even have seen a beneficial side to a Communist victory, as it would certainly preclude cooperation with the Nazis.

    Although not often brought up, I think the British were afraid of Spain joining the fray on Hitler's side, as it would essentially mean the end of gibraltar and possibly the whole North African front. If they were going to intervene on any outcome, it would have been against the Nationalists, which of course never happened.
     
  14. Hands

    Hands Member

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    PzJgr,
    there are other ways to bring down the communist rulers without fighting like economical boycott and sanctions. Or even an embargo. :eek:

    Spain like Britain needed import food from overseas.

    hey, actually this was how canaris persuaded Hitler not to invade spain. How to provide food for the 30 or so million spaniards.
     
  15. Hands

    Hands Member

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    Wasnt the british and French elite more afraid of the communists then of the fascists before the war especially in 1936? Both countries especially france were facing strikes but their main opponents were still the "communist" unions.
     
  16. Friedrich

    Friedrich Expert

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    OK… one thing first of all:

    The term communists does NOT apply to the entirity of the Republican side of the Spanish Civil War. It is quite disrespectful, in fact, because the Republican side included not only communists, but also social democrats and liberals, even some anti-fascist clergy, not to mention the International brigades. In the same way the Nationalist side did not only include fascists, but anti-communist liberals, monarchists and fascists.

    Occupying Spain? That would have been idiotic. Remember 1808? The terrain and weather of Spain favour a bloody guerrilla warfare, like Yugoslavia and Greece.

    Taking Gibraltar? For what use? In mid-1942, during the worst part of the siege of Malta, most British shipping was going from Great Britain to Alexandria via the Cape of Good Hope and the Suez Canal.

    Also, let's remember that the Axis had controll over the Ægean sea and the eastern Mediterranean, and what did they do with it? In what did it affect the Allied war effort?

    It's simple, even with Gilbraltar on their hands, the Germans didn't have the ships or enough planes to exploit such a strategic advantage.
     
  17. TheRedBaron

    TheRedBaron Ace

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    If the Republicans won the SCW?

    Well for starters my Step-Fathers Grandad wouldnt have met an early death at the hands of a firing squad... [​IMG]
     
  18. PzJgr

    PzJgr Drill Instructor

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    Interesting. My grandfather was from Spain. His family were silversmiths and made some of the swords and daggers for the Spanish Army. They were also Facists
     
  19. GRW

    GRW Pillboxologist WW2|ORG Editor

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    Wasnt the british and French elite more afraid of the communists then of the fascists before the war especially in 1936? Both countries especially france were facing strikes but their main opponents were still the "communist" unions. [/QB][/QUOTE]

    Most of the pre-war British elite were either Communists or Fascists; Moseley's Blackshirts were mostly bourgeois, and the same can be said for most of the British Communist Party, especially the volunteers from Clydeside who went to Spain.
    Unions had been established in Britain for almost a century by this time, in some cases worker's groups had been going since the late 18th century; they were only stigmatised as 'Communists' after 1917. Anyway after 1936 when the rearmament programme started, its massive boost to the economy killed off the Great Depression's last effects and helped smooth labour relations.
    Can't speak for France, but since a large proportion of the population still work on the land I would imagine they had great labour problems before the war.
     
  20. Hands

    Hands Member

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    Ceremonial swords and daggers right ?

    You are now living in the US ? Why did your parents or you leave spain?
     
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