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Spitfire - What If's

Discussion in 'What If - European Theater - Western Front & Atlan' started by KnightMove, Dec 13, 2003.

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  1. Erich

    Erich Alte Hase

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    yes the G-6 was in action in 1943, but the AS version did not see into the units till April of 44 first with the heavily involved II./JG 11, the a gruppe in JG 1, I./JG 3 and so on. the G-6/AS was the fastest production model of it's time till the G-10 came available and some sources mention this was actually faster than the K-4 model which was only in limited numbers to the still existing 109 gruppen. Again keep in mind the Fw 190Dora was only a stop gap until production of the Ta 152 could be raised, but it wasn't.......
     
  2. T. A. Gardner

    T. A. Gardner Genuine Chief

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    Let's see:
    P-51 B/C w/ Merlin V-1650-3 or -7 engine: Flight testing began Sept 42, operational Dec 43
    P-51 D Began to see squadron service April 44. It was virtually identical except for the cut down fuselage and new canopy with the B/C models using the same V-1650-7 engines, etc.
    P-51 H Design begins early 44 first flight Feb 45. This plane is only about 20 - 30% common with previous models. It had a entirely new wing, many major fuselage changes and new landing gear etc.

    P-72A 2 Prototypes flying June 44
    P-47M 3 prototypes early 44 in service Aug 44.
    P-47N Sept 44. Production Dec 44. Has totally new wing design on P-47M fuselage.


    Me 109G6 Prototypes Jan 42 operational fall of 42.
    Me 109 G-10 June/July 44 production starts. Operational Nov 44.
    Me 109 G-14 Mar/ Apr 44 production starts. Operational Aug 44.
    Me 109 K-1 -4 Sept pre-production. Jan 45 operational.

    Fw 190 D-9 Prototypes summer 44, operational Oct 44.
    Ta 152C Prototypes Mar 45 never produced.
    Ta 152H Prototypes June / july 44, production starts Nov 44
    both Ta 152's have a high commonality with the 190D in terms of parts. The Ta 152H is a stretched 190D fuselage with new outer wing panels attached to the same inner wing.

    As you can see the P-51 H and P-47 M /N and P-72 are contemporaries with the 109 G-10, K and 190D / Ta 152 more so than the P-51B - D or P-47D which are more readily paired with the G-6.
     
  3. Erich

    Erich Alte Hase

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    Actually several Ta 152C proto's were taken over by JG 301 before the factory was over-run by the Soviets
     
  4. chromeboomerang

    chromeboomerang New Member

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    I believe 674 K-4's were delivered, & it came out just ahead of G-10. Another thing to remember regarding Gardners argument is that the Mustang had the benefit of studying the Spit & 109 designs, the P-40 & P39 as well. The 109 was a 1934 design, So the Mustang could employ the better ideas of these planes & avoid the mistakes. A huge advantage not enjoyed by the Messerschmitt team. So with that in mind, I think it very "fair" to compare a K-4 to a Mustang D.
     
  5. chromeboomerang

    chromeboomerang New Member

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    Also The D-9 was 2yrs in testing & developing, 42-44, So the above argument doesn't really fly with the D-9.
     
  6. chromeboomerang

    chromeboomerang New Member

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    The K-4 was operational Oct 44, not Jan 45. The allies had 2 big technological advantages, # 1 they had 100 octane gas, & the Germans had 87 octane. Also the Germans did not have high grade steel, & their motors had a shorter shelf life. One prototype D series aircraft hit 450 at 30.000 ft with a turbosupercharger, but it would melt because they didn't have the right steel. They tried ceramics, but it didn't work. So with that in mind, it is amazing what they were able to achieve in performance in 44-45.
     
  7. chromeboomerang

    chromeboomerang New Member

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    Eric, The G-6 AS as you mentioned had similiar performance to the K. Probably more manueverable with lower wing loading. What do ya think? Also I read that the last dogfight of ww2 was between a Tempest & a 152. The 152 outturned the Tempest with ease. My question is what about a Spit? 152 vs Spit in the turn, low or high altitude. Let me know what you think. Also the new Warbirds mag has a cool D-13 article with good photos.
     
  8. TheRedBaron

    TheRedBaron Ace

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    wouldnt the last dogfight of ww2 be in the Far East??? ;)
     
  9. redcoat

    redcoat Ace

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    Funny you should mention that because ;)

    Seafires(the naval version of the Spitfire) of No. 894 Squadron, FAA, and IJNAF A6Ms fought the last mass fighter-against-fighter combat of WW2, over Odaki Bay, minutes before the cease-fire was ordered on August 15. Eight Zeros were shot down for the loss of one Seafire, and the war actually ended before some of the Seafires got back to HMS Indefatigable.
     
  10. TheRedBaron

    TheRedBaron Ace

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    Do we know who shot down the last plane of WW2???
     
  11. redcoat

    redcoat Ace

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    It was a Consolidated B-32 Dominator. After the cease-fire, B-32s flew photo-reconnaissance missions over Japan to assess the amount of damage. Most of those missions were unopposed, but on a mission over Tokyo on August 18, two B-32s were attacked by Japanese fighters (unknown type). Two Japanese fighters were shot down, but both of the B-32s made it back to base, although one of them had one crewman killed and two injured.
     
  12. TheRedBaron

    TheRedBaron Ace

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    Cool,

    Thanxs redcoat! A very speedy response!

    And in the Western Hemisphere???
     
  13. chromeboomerang

    chromeboomerang New Member

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    Correction, I meant Europe. A painting was made of this fight, which did actually take place & was labelled the last dogfight in Europe. Have no way of verifying if it was in fact "the" last, but it was presented as such. So any ideas on 152 vs Spit in turn? Or G-6 AS vs K-4?
     
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