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Stalin and the Spanish Civil War

Discussion in 'Prelude to War & Poland 1939' started by JeffinMNUSA, Apr 1, 2010.

  1. JeffinMNUSA

    JeffinMNUSA Member

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  2. efestos

    efestos Member

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  3. JeffinMNUSA

    JeffinMNUSA Member

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    Efestos;
    Here is an interesting claim made by Orlov in his exile;

    The Sensational Secret Behind the Damnation of Stalin. This story held that NKVD agents had discovered papers in the Tsarist archives which proved Stalin had once been an Okhrana agent and, on the basis of this knowledge, the NKVD agents had planned a coup d'état with the leaders of the Red Army.[3] Stalin, Orlov continued, uncovered the plot and this was his motive behind the secret trial and execution of Soviet Marshal Tukhachevsky and the purge of the Red Army.[4]

    And presumably why so many of the Old Guard were shot in the thirties? The Okhrana being the Tsarist Secret Police...Okhrana was also responsible for "THe Secret Protocols of the Elders of Zion" hoax; http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Protocols_of_the_Elders_of_Zion
    The mass shootings of agents returning from Spain goes a long way in explaining as to why the USSR did not learn the lessons it should have learned from the Spanish battlefields (like "throw away those WWI manuals! They no longer apply!").

    JeffinMNUSA

    PS. Some Stalinist era posters-and modern PR makes it possible to really "put lipstick on a pig"; http://www.internetvibes.net/gallery/old-ussr-posters-about-stalin-and-soviet-people-from-30th/
     
  4. Kai-Petri

    Kai-Petri Kenraali

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    As far as I know the Spanish bank had alot of gold in it.The gold that mostly had been taken from the South American indians originally. All this was shipped to Stalin before the war ended. I think Stalin definitely got what he wanted...

    If you can correct me please do so but I have not found any other place where it went or that it would have been left in Spain....
     
  5. Spaniard

    Spaniard New Member

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    </SPAN></SPAN></SPAN></SPAN>

    I Found this In an article, "Spain and the intellectuals," Radosh attacks everyone who still believes that the defense of the Spanish Republic was a "great cause." His point is that a victory for the Republicans would have been a victory for Stalin.

    Pathetic fallacies. (Ronald Radosh on George Orwell and the Spanish Civil War) - The Nation | HighBeam Research - FREE trial



    Well I found this interesting assessment concerning the matter in hand Senior ;) I've provided the link a little long read but interesting information which I found it quite factual.

    Stalin had begun to exploit the war in Spain to shore up flagging support for his own regime. While taking no action to give the Republic any material support, the Kremlin sought to link the Loyalist cause to the security of the USSR in the minds of Soviet citizens.

    The Soviet regime had moved quickly to capitalize on the war's potential via a domestic and worldwide solidarity campaign, the Kremlin was not immediately eager to become directly involved in the Spanish imbroglio. Moscow waited nearly ten weeks before supplying the first arms to the Loyalist side. Before committing himself militarily, Stalin took precautions to ensure that the entire aid operation would be carried out in strict secrecy.

    Once involved in the conflict, and for approximately the first ten months of its military intervention, the Soviet regime spared little effort in attempting to turn the tide of the war and help the Republic win.

    Moscow also pursued the longer-term goal of a establishing a genuine ally in the west Mediterranean in a victorious Spanish Republic. Had the Kremlin viewed the Republic as a mere source of hard currency, as some have argued, or as a tool of strategic maneuvering between the West and Germany, as others have often claimed, the regime would not likely have sought to intertwine itself with the Republic on myriad levels. In the event, however, Moscow was soon treating the Republic like its most privileged ally, and sought to develop connections with the Loyalist government that went far beyond the supply of arms and advisers.

    By the second half of 1937, a major shift in Soviet policy towards the Republic was discernable. Every major indicator of Moscow's investment in a Republican victory was now in decline: arms supplies were dramatically scaled back, the diplomatic missions were downgraded and withdrawn, and Soviet flyers and tankers began to be replaced by Republican crews.

    The Soviet regime began to disengage the populace from Spanish affairs. The war disappeared into the middle pages of the state newspapers, and in public speeches Soviet leaders mentioned the Republic's cause less and less.

    Stalin has frequently been criticized for abandoning the Republic midway through the war, but the evidence presented here suggests a more nuanced assessment of Soviet supply patterns over the course of the conflict. Therefore over Time support arms supplies were dramatically scaled back,to nothing. Operation X certainly became more difficult over time, with various factors conspiring to make transshipping from the USSR expensive, risky, and on some routes practically impossible.

    Collaboration between Soviet advisors and the Republican command was often hampered by Moscow's pursuit of an ideological agenda in Spain that had little to do with military victory. At times, the Soviet regime's relentless persecution of non-conformist Communist elements in Spain or its desire to manipulate and control Republican politics completely sidetracked strategic objectives. On several occasions—most notably during the unrest in Barcelona in May 1937—Moscow's preoccupation with confronting the independent POUM militias or uncooperative anarcho-syndicalists left the impression of a struggle waged not on Franco's army, but on supposedly rogue Loyalist elements.

    Stalin and the Spanish Civil War: Conclusion
     
  6. Spaniard

    Spaniard New Member

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    I think the Gold from South America disappeared with the British War, in the end Spain was Bankrupt "En Masse" the Majority of the Gold was used to build the Armada, and everybody else that profited from it, living La Vida Loca.
     
  7. efestos

    efestos Member

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    It was the fourth stockpile of the world, I read it was arround 510 tons. (By rote, sorry if I miss)

    Why not to the USA? There was an embargo over weapons, not over TRADE. An they could have got credit on this guarantee.

    More, Valencia could have been an option. The city fall in april 1939 at the end of the civil war. The Republican Navy sailed from Cartagena to Argel these days.

    In fact the gold was sended to Moscow illegally, clandestinely, without the consent of the whole government, initiated by the Minister of Finance Mr. Negrin. A convinced Marxist was expelled from the PSOE after the defeat. The intention was simply to put the Republic under the rule of Stalin.

    And he got it.


    SPANIARD: More: And exemple of the democratic ideas of the reds. They Killed (Yes the Nationalist were bloody butchers too) a man like Melkiades Álvarez

    He has Republican (in this context) Democratic and Conservative ideas the last killed him. And he defended this positions all along his live. Killed in agost 1936 Madrid.
     
  8. Kai-Petri

    Kai-Petri Kenraali

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    I believe you are correct that alot of gold went there but it seems (or was it so?) that quite alot also went to Stalin...??

    Spanish gold Stalin. - The OMSA Forums

    "Oct. 21 A. Orlov arrived in Cartagena and went into the cave, located in the mountains about five miles from the city, where under the protection of 60 Spanish seamen kept the gold. From 22 to 25 October was transporting gold to the port of Cartagena and loading it into four Soviet ships: "Kim", "Kuban", "Neva" and "Volgoles. Gold, placed in the 7800 standard boxes, each weighing 65 kg."

    How Moscow robbed Spain of its gold in the Civil War

    Four hundred tons of gold reserves were secretly shipped from Cartagena to the Soviet Union in October 1936 in the face of Franco's advancing army, with the agreement that part of it would stay in Moscow to pay for Soviet aid. The proceeds of the rest were transferred to a Soviet-owned bank in Paris for arms purchases elsewhere in the world.
     
  9. efestos

    efestos Member

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    SPANIARD , Felipe II (Philip II) is so far away. The gold probably came from the bussines in the Great War.

    The growth of the Spanish economy in the first third of the twentieth century was impressive. (Stanley Payne, The collapse of the Republic). Spain was far away, obviously, of great nations, but much better than at the beginning of the century.

    With the social problems of the twentieth century, that brought Fascism in Italy, Bolshevik revolution in Russia, NAZIs in Germany, and The Bloody Civil War at home.
     
  10. Spaniard

    Spaniard New Member

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    How many times did spain go bankrupt in the 1500's, Spain went bankrupt 7 times.

    http://www.chacha.com/question/how-many-times-did-spain-go-bankrupt-in-the-1500's

    God is Spanish" (1596–1626)
    Faced with wars against England, France and the Netherlands, each led by capable leaders, the bankrupted empire found itself competing against strong adversaries. Continuing piracy against its shipping in the Atlantic and the costly colonial enterprises forced Spain to renegotiate its debts in 1596.

    Spanish commander Ambrogio Spinola, a general with the ability to match Maurice, pressed hard against the Dutch and was prevented from conquering the Netherlands only by Spain's latest bankruptcy in 1607. Spain made a fair recovery during the truce, putting her finances in order and doing much to restore her prestige and stability in the run-up to the last truly great war in which she would play a leading part. Philip II's successor, Philip III, In 1621, Philip III was succeeded by the considerably more religious Philip IV.

    Rapid shipping growth from the mid-1740s until the Seven Years' War (1756–63), reflecting in part the success of the Bourbons in bringing illicit trade under control. With the loosening of trade controls after the Seven Years War, shipping trade within the empire once again began to expand, reaching an extraordinary rate of growth in the 1780s.

    The 18th century was a century of prosperity for the overseas Spanish Empire as trade within grew steadily, particularly in the second half of the century, under the Bourbon reforms. Spain's crucial victory in the Battle of Cartagena de Indias against an extraordinary British fleet, in the Caribbean port of Cartagena de Indias, one of a number of successful battles, helped it secure Spain's dominance of the Americas until the 19th century.

    Not counting the Dutch War +++++ That stretched Spain's Coffers for 30 years.

    The Spanish empire had still not returned to first rate power status, but it had recovered considerably from the dark days at the beginning of the eighteenth century.

    I read after 1800 they had Prosperity Business in ships++++++++++. Many paid in Gold. Not counting the Gold Mines and Spain Company's and banks still operating after Spain removed themselves from South America.

    Spanish Empire - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


    It's Safe to say not the Gold from the invasion and concerning of South America. It's still astonishing the amount they got shafted by Stalin;)

    Lets not forget also The Napoleon Shaft. Yes our King was a Bright one!
     
  11. efestos

    efestos Member

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    Carlos IV and Fernando VII. :eek: ... So far away from the WWII weren't them?

    The Bourbons get a great succes allowing the lands of the realm to trade with America. Yes during the Austrias all the Spanish trade was in Sevilla (an Cádiz) Obviously was more easy the smuggling trade from The Neederlands than from ... Barcelona. So stupid.

    Returning to Stalin: he got the Gold reserves of the "Banco de España" because Negrín sended to him. The marxist cause was more important for him than his own country.

    In the Spanish civil war were tested the Katyn massacre in Madrid: PARACUELLOS

    The comunist party had the strong responasbility.

     
  12. Spaniard

    Spaniard New Member

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    Yes so far from WWII, Just to show the South American Gold that was plundered and depleted by that time.

    Negrin Lopez took the decision to transfer the gold reserves to the Soviet Union in return for arms planes tanks to continue the war, estimated worth of $500 M others Claim $700 M at the time, and what he transferred to the Bank in France. Many argued that this action put the Republican government under the control of Stalin.


    As Minister of Finance he conceived of Spain’s relatively large gold reserve as the only means by which the Republic could buy the quality of modern arms that were being supplied to General Franco by Hitler and Mussolini. In European politics of the mid-1930s he understood much better than did the English, French, and United States political classes that Nazism and Fascism were a much greater threat to European democracy than was Soviet Communism. But the “appeasement” policy culminating in the Munich Pact of September 29, 1938 sealed the fate of the Spanish Republic as well as that of the Republic of Czechoslovakia.


    Juan Negrín

    And it was from Moscow that the Spanish Communist Party took its lead. Beevor relates that one of the chief controllers of the International Brigades (see below), André Marty, had a “conspiracy complex that rivalled Stalin’s. Influenced by the show trials in Moscow, he became convinced that ‘Fascist-Trotskyist’ spies were everywhere”. It was a two-way process, as the paranoia was exported to Spain, Machiavellian conspiracy theories made there served to accelerate the purges in the Soviet Union.

    fabled military support provided by the Soviet Union was too little and too late – and generally of poor quality. In addition, whilst the Nationalists received vast supplies on credit from the US and Britain, Stalin’s assistance came with strings attached. One of the Republic’s greatest assets was its control of Spain’s gold reserves, 635 tons, the equivalent of $715 million, the fourth largest gold reserves in the world. Astonishing as it may seem, in September 1936 over 72% of the Republic’s reserves were secretly shipped to Moscow as a “current account” to pay for arms and other expenses. The man who masterminded the operation was the NKVD agent General Alexander Orlov. The only people in Spain who knew about the smuggling out of the gold were President Azaña, Prime Minister Largo Caballero of the UGT and Finance Minister Juan Negrín. Beevor notes, “nothing was free and many charges appear to have been exaggerated to say the least”. The Soviet Union made a considerable profit out of the deal. And as the International Brigades were struggling desperately on the ground, Stalin continued selling oil to Mussolini whose air force rained bombs on the Republican forces. By 1938 the Republic’s appeal for military assistance was a low priority for Stalin. Even arms paid for in advance through a second shipment of gold never reached Spain.

    A World to Win | Review | Books | The battle for Spain
     
  13. efestos

    efestos Member

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    Well, Stalin was a Bank robber in his youth.

    I didn't read carefully enough Mr Kai. So I understand why you were writing about the XVI - XIX centuries. My apologies.

    Now I'll return to the XVI century: Villar battle (1521): The "Comuneros" meet the royal army ... And the royal Army decisively defeated them. It's said it was the last chance to have a modern State in Spain. The Royal Army was paid with the first shipment from Cortés. The common people didn´t see a coin.
     

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