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Stalin captured and moscow lost 1941

Discussion in 'What If - European Theater - Eastern Front & Balka' started by Kai-Petri, Feb 23, 2003.

  1. British-Empire

    British-Empire Member

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    If Britain was neutral and the soviets attacked Finland and still made extensive demands on Bulgaria and Turkey it may well have pushed Hitler to attack the USSR in 1940.
    But if it is 1941 the Germans would have had three extra Panzer Divisions (two sent to North Africa and one composed of loses entailed).
    Vast numbers of extra aircraft and if I remember rightly around 30+ extra infantry Divisions.
     
  2. British-Empire

    British-Empire Member

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    As you suggest in your second point 1942 would have been the ideal year to attack.
    However the thread was requesting a scenario to have Moscow captured in 1941.
     
  3. Tamino

    Tamino Doc - The Deplorable

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    Les's get back to the theme of this thread, but now with historic data which reveal the real Russian intentions in case the Germans manage to enter Moscow.

    There is a book "Lubyanka in the Days of the Battle for Moscow" written by V. S. Khristoforov, based on declassified documents from the Central Archive of Russia's Federal Security Service (FSB), successor to the KGB. Mr. Khristoforov is chief of the FSB's archival services. The book isn't yet translated to English so I have read just some parts which have been cited at the CIA web site in English. The whole review of a book you may find >here<. In this post I will cite just text that refers strictly to the defence of Moscow. You can consider this whole post as under-quotation-marks.

    The NKVD worked furiously to plan the defense of the city while preparing to destroy its infrastructure and continue fighting an urban guerrilla campaign if the Germans proved victorious. Its priority assignment was to protect the Kremlin and the top leadership, especially Stalin, and prepare evacuation plans. On the night of 15-16 October, the government evacuated to Kuibyshev (Samara) east of the Urals, which became the temporary Soviet capital. Stalin deliberated for 24 hours and then decided to remain in Moscow.

    According to Khristoforov, »NKVD detachments played a vital, perhaps critical, role in the defense of Moscow by slowing down the Nazi war machine, which had been steamrolling across European Russia since 22 June 1941, and giving Stalin's military genius, Gen. Georgy Zhukov, time to prepare a defense of the Soviet capital while reinforcements arrived from Siberia.«

    The book publishes 100 important documents including:
    Camouflaging the Kremlin
    Evacuation of Lenin's Corpse
    Mining of Key Sites and Organization of the Underground
    Creation of Military Counterintelligence and Behind-the-Lines Groups
    Letters from Soldiers of the RKKA8 and the Wehrmacht​

    The NKVD worked furiously to plan the defense of the city while preparing to destroy its infrastructure and continue fighting an urban guerrilla campaign if the Germans proved victorious. Its priority assignment was to protect the Kremlin and the top leadership, especially Stalin, and prepare evacuation plans. On the night of 15-16 October, the government evacuated to Kuibyshev (Samara) east of the Urals, which became the temporary Soviet capital. Stalin deliberated for 24 hours and then decided to remain in Moscow.

    The documents reveal that Stalin was prepared to destroy Moscow to deny it to Hitler A new NKVD special operations force called OMSBON (Independent Motorized Brigade for Special Operations) was formed in October 1941. It was the only unit with the technicians and explosives needed to mine the city's most famous sites, including the Kremlin, the orchestra pit of the Bolshoi Theater, the Metropole and National hotels, the Cathedral of the Epiphany, the residence of the Soviet foreign minister, the Foreign Ministry building, and the dachas. Plans were made to destroy Moscow's telephone system, its water supply, and its power stations, as well as other parts of the urban infrastructure, which would have made the city all but uninhabitable.

    The Battle of Moscow was the NKVD's finest hour—no doubt about it. Twenty-four omsbonovtsevi, as the detachments' members were called, received Hero of the Soviet Union medals, the USSR's highest military award for bravery, equivalent to the Congressional Medal of Honor. Stalin and Zhukov both acknowledged their role in saving the city. (*)

    I think this resolves many doubts and unanswered question.

    (*) Note that Zhukov hasn't recieved HoUSSR medal for victory at Moscov.
     
  4. British-Empire

    British-Empire Member

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    What does it resolve exactly?
     
  5. British-Empire

    British-Empire Member

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    On October 15, with the German army approaching, Stalin ordered that the government be evacuated from Moscow. Braithwaite recounted how the evacuation created a panic in the city. Factories and offices were shut down with no explanation given to employees. There were riots and looting, with some rioters calling out pro-Nazi slogans. Stalin responded by remaining in Moscow, halting the evacuation, providing workers with food and cash, and unleashing the NKVD to restore order.

    Moscow 1941: A City and Its People at War | Wilson Center
     
  6. Tamino

    Tamino Doc - The Deplorable

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    You need an advice either from optician or someone else. :bucky:
     
  7. British-Empire

    British-Empire Member

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    I need you to be specific.
     
  8. Tamino

    Tamino Doc - The Deplorable

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    I ain't no native speaker! I cannot find an adequate word. :eyebrows:
     
  9. Sloniksp

    Sloniksp Ставка

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    I still fail to see why Britain remains neutral.

    Soviet foreign policy was directly attached to what was unfolding in Western Europe. To be under the impression that the Soviet Union would have proceeded with what she historically had regardless of Britains and France's stance (major factors) would (IMO) be a mistake. Stalin was no fool.
     
  10. British-Empire

    British-Empire Member

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    Why would Britain enter the war to save the USSR?
     
  11. Kai-Petri

    Kai-Petri Kenraali

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    In a radio address on the day Adolf Hitler’s forces invaded, Churchill expressed his sympathy for the Soviet people, saying that though “no one has been a more consistent opponent of Communism than I… Any man or state who fights against Nazism will have our aid.”

    When Britain aided the Soviet Union in World War Two - Telegraph
     
    Sloniksp likes this.

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