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Stonne the forgotten tank battle

Discussion in 'Western Europe 1939 - 1942' started by Skipper, Jun 10, 2011.

  1. Skipper

    Skipper Kommodore

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    I thought some of you may want to read about this. :cool:


    Stonne is a small place in the French Ardennes, not far away from the 1944 Battle fields in the Belgian Ardennes. You could actually visit both places on a same trip.

    The Stonne Ardennes battle took place in May 1940 :)

    Think about the fierce battles. The village changed hands 17 times between May 15th and May 19th. It was only after a 17th counter attack that the Germans managed to take the place after having destroyed 33 tanks and having lost 24 Panzers. The German victory was eventually effective after a permanent intervention from Stukas.

    The price for victory was trenmendously high : 3000 Germans lost their lives vs 1000 Frenchmen.

    Stonne - Circuit de la Bataille Mai-Juin 1940 (08)




    If you add the battle of Montcornet to this figure skyrocket to :

    "Operations near the town involved 90,000 German troops and 300 German tanks, opposed by 42,500 French soldiers and 130 French tanks. The Germans lost 26,500 men (wounded and killed) and the French 7,500 (wounded and killed)."

    Great monuments are to be seen all around the please including a Char B1 Bis at Stonne. :)


    Stonne - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
     
  2. Kai-Petri

    Kai-Petri Kenraali

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    That must be record in ww2 for a village changing hands in such time period...
     
  3. Skipper

    Skipper Kommodore

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    Have a check at the German units involved. I believe Grossdeutschland was there too. Guderian got some grey hair those days, to say the least. Without the Luftwaffe Stukas he'd have been in trouble .
     
  4. Domen121

    Domen121 Member

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    German casualty figures for these battles are largely exaggerated. Especially 3,000 dead for Stonne.

    After all in the entire Western Campaign German lost around 46,000 killed and missing (as well as over 100,000 wounded).

    While Allied losses were much bigger (French alone lost between 90,000 and 120,000 killed - wounded not included).

    Plus the fact is that most of German casualties in men were suffered in June of 1940 - not in May.

    ================================================

    Regarding Stonne - one of the heroes of the battle was Captain Pierre Bilotte:

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pierre_Billotte

    http://www.generals.dk/general/Billotte/Pierre-Armand-Gaston/France.html

    [​IMG]

    I believe there are photos showing his tank soon after the battle somewhere in the internet.
     
  5. Skipper

    Skipper Kommodore

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    Figures are for Stonne , Montcornet and surroundings, not Stonne alone.
     
  6. Domen121

    Domen121 Member

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    This is what Panzermeyer (David Lehmann) writes about this here - but I "caught" him exaggerating German losses on several occasions:

    Feldgrau.net • View topic - German Losses against France, May-June 1940.

    According to him Germans had much higher losses than French in almost every battle he describes.

    But if so then how is this possible that overall German losses in the campaign were much smaller than French?

    That's the question.

    The casualty figures he quotes for these units above (24. ID, 79. IR, Grossdeutschland) are probably already INCLUDED in the number of graves (915).

    Anyway - that was a fierce battle and French were fighting very bravely near Stonne, no matter what casualties each side suffered.
     
  7. Domen121

    Domen121 Member

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    Besdides - the loss of 26,500 men by a force of 90,000 (30% casualties) would mean nearly 100% annihilation of combat units (especially fighting infantry).

    Highly unlikely for combats of that nature. I would believe if something like this happened inside the pocket of Stalingrad though.
     
  8. Skipper

    Skipper Kommodore

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    That makes sense. This would mean wiki figures are exagerated too
     
  9. yan taylor

    yan taylor Member

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    Is it true that the German Army suffered 120.000 dead in the battle of France and the Low Countries ?.
     
  10. TiredOldSoldier

    TiredOldSoldier Ace

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    There is a good French account of the battle in Batailles Thematiques #2, one thing I found there that I didn't know was that 10Pz and GD were subordinated to XIV Korps not to Guderian's XIX during their patecipation in the battle. AFAIK the B1Bis of the 3DCR obtained many a local success (they were proof against most German guns) but bad coordination prevented anything more than local success, the French attacks were often just "armoured raids" without enough support to hold the ground which partly explains the huge number of "changing hands", as soon as the tanks pulled back to refuel and replenish the German infantry moved in again.
    In the end the Gemans held, and probably were not too worried considering responsability for the sector changed hands 3 times as the units continued to move west, and eventually wore down the the French forces (mostly from 3DCR and 3DIM).
     
  11. Domen121

    Domen121 Member

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    120,000 was the number of French dead (not German). However some sources give smaller numbers.
     
  12. TiredOldSoldier

    TiredOldSoldier Ace

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    The area was initially the responsability of 10th Panzer and GD, they then moved west to rejoin Guderian and were replaced by 29ID (mot) from XIV Mot. Korps. XIV Korps was finally replaced by VI Korps with infantry divisions (regular foot) 16 and 24 that attacked southwards. So the two French divisions faced a similar number of German units at any one time. In addition to the 3DIM and 3DLM the French were reinforced part of the 6DIC (Colonial infantry division).

    The 130 tanks for the French looks low as 3DCR alone officially had more than that, 300 for the Germans looks about right if you add the Stugs (from GD) and the Panzerjaegers to the two Pz Regiments of 10th Panzer but AFAIK only 8th regiment was involved at Stonne 7th was not, when 10th Panzer and GD moved west the Germans were left with no tanks.

    Besides Billotte and his B1Bis Eure there are some other colourful episodes in the battle like the narrow escape of the comander of GD that went to sleep and woke with a French batallion moving between his location and the rest of his unit during the initial contact phase or the German tanker that knocked out two B1Bis and two H39 firing the 75mm of his "disabled" Pz IV.
     
  13. Gebirgsjaeger

    Gebirgsjaeger Ace

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  14. TiredOldSoldier

    TiredOldSoldier Ace

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    Bilotte's tank is mentioned as l'Eure in my account the driver Sgt. Durupt is also mentioned by name, it was part of I/41 BCC also part of the attack were III/41 BCC (Bataillon Char de Combat), II/45 BCC and III/51 BCC for a total of 16 B1Bis and 13 H39 supported by infantry from 3DIM and by the divisional artillery of both divisions (the DCRs didn't have much arty but 3DIM had two artillery regiments). The French tank companies were not at full strength, I don't know if for combat losses or simply mecanical failures.

    BTW the German column is described as containing Pz IV, Pz III and 47mm PzJaegers on Pz I chassis (from 521 PzJgr Abt.) in my account, as at least one badly damaged PanzerJaeger (but no IIIs possibly already removed by recovery crews) is recognizable in after the action photograps there was probably some confusion in the report.
    View attachment 21729
     

    Attached Files:

  15. yan taylor

    yan taylor Member

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    Has anyone seen any stuff on the Battle of Hondeghem, I think it might of been a British v German skirmish, and I dont know if any other of the Allied nations were there in a support role.
     

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