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Sweden knew about "Operation Where and When"

Discussion in 'Western Europe' started by Highway70, Feb 10, 2015.

  1. Highway70

    Highway70 Member

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    "Operation Where and When" commanded by Brent Balchen was an US clandestine air transport operation operated from an air base in northern Sweden during WW2..

    Balchen was a Norwegian polar aviation pioneer and expert who became a US citizen. In 1941 while serving with the Norwegian Air Force in the US and Canada (Norwegian exile government), he accepted a commission as a colonel in the USAAF at the request of "Hap" Arnold.
     
  2. GRW

    GRW Pillboxologist WW2|ORG Editor

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  3. dude_really

    dude_really Doesn't Play Well With Others

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    Can you disclose a bit more on this " as well as the diffuse political mission to help the Norwegians to get the Russians to understand that they should not remain in northern Norway, after having driven out the Germans."
    I mean, how did they convince a staunch communist commander to please leave the area when Stalin gave him the direct orders to stay ?

    The russians were also moving fast towards Denmark, for the same motivation..
     
  4. bronk7

    bronk7 Well-Known Member

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    I love these ''out of the way''/ordinary stories
     
  5. green slime

    green slime Member

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    Maybe, it wasn't "just" Soviet forces there. Maybe the Norwegian underground's Milorg's (with 40,000 armed Norwegians) immediate and efficient seizure of all important functions in Southern Norway on the day of the Surrender impressed.

    On 25 October 1944, the order was given for a Norwegian force in Britain to set sail for Murmansk to join the Soviet forces now entering Northern Norway. The envoy was named Force 138 and the operation was called "Operation Crofter".
    The Norwegian commander, Oberst Arne D. Dahl, had under his command:
    • A military mission responsible for creating a liaison with the Soviets and setting up a civil administration,
    • Bergkompani 2 under Major S. Rongstad with 233 men,
    • A naval area command with 11 men,
    • "Area command Finnmark" consisting of 12 men.
    The small force arrived in Murmansk on November 6 and re-embarked on board a Soviet ship to Liinakhamari in North-western Soviet Union (former North-eastern Finland), where they thereafter boarded trucks for the final leg of their journey, arriving back on Norwegian soil having spent over four years in exile on November 10. The Soviet commander, Lieutenant General Sherbakov, made it clear that he wanted the Norwegian Bergkompani to take over the forward positions as soon as possible. Volunteers from the local population were hastily formed into "guard companies" armed with Soviet weapons pending the arrival of more troops from either Sweden or Britain. The first convoy arrived from Britain on 7 December and included two Norwegian corvettes (one of which was later damaged by a mine) and three minesweepers.
    It soon became obvious that reconnaissance patrols needed to be sent out to discover what the Germans were up to and to find out if the local population to the West had been evacuated or were still there. The reports came back stating that the Germans were in the process of pulling back from Porsanger but were laying mines and booby-traps along the way, a few people were left here and there and many of the buildings were burnt down.
    This remained the situation as 1944 slipped into 1945. The new year would see the Norwegian forces slowly taking back a battered Finnmark, helping the local population in the bitter arctic winter and dealing with occasional German raids from the air, sea and land as well as the ever present danger from mines. Reinforcements arrived from the Norwegian Rikspoliti based in Sweden as well as convoys from Britain. A total of 1,442 people and 1,225 short tons (1,111 t) of material were flown in by Dakota from Kallax in Sweden to Finnmark and by April the Norwegian forces stood at over 3,000 men. On 26 April the Norwegian command sent out a message that Finnmark was free. When the Germans finally capitulated on 8 May 1945, the 1st company of the Varanger battalion was positioned along the Finnmark-Troms border to the west of Alta.

    Following the surrender, detachments of regular Norwegian and Allied troops were sent to Norway, which included 13,000 Norwegian troops trained in Sweden and 30,000 British and American troops. Official representatives of the Norwegian civil authorities followed soon after these military forces, with Crown Prince Olav arriving in Oslo on a British cruiser on 14 May.

    Think Stalin was ready to start World War III over some barren rocks in the far north of Europe when the Western Allies had Atomic bombs? When he'd been arming locals?

    Just exactly when did Stalin order his staunch commander not to withdraw? Because they withdrew from Northern Norway already in October, 1945.

    The Russians left Bornholm (Denmark) in April, 1946.

    But if you really seek further information, try here:
    http://brage.bibsys.no/xmlui/handle/11250/99243 A pile of literature from The Norwegian Defence Academy.
     
  6. dude_really

    dude_really Doesn't Play Well With Others

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    Let me be frank , because your sentiment is probably fed elsewhere:

    I don't like your tone.
    1.First I came with a question, NOT WITH A CONCLUSION OR THEORY, because I don't know anything particular of this situation.
    2. Stalin doesnot risk an atomic attack for loitering too long in Normay/Denmark.(but he'd be staying as much as possible to get the most out of it) .and if so , he'd be given enough time to leave after several warnings...just like the CUBA CRISIS , yeah?
    That shows how communists in these days acted, thought and operated. AND SO IS PUTIN TODAY.
    So probably he'd know LONG BEFORE if someone at the white house is INCLINED to make use of Abombs and risking another war or not. Spies you know. LOTS of spies.
    3. obviously if there are 13.000 + 30.000 troops (all at once ??or...over a period of time.. ;) ) and soviet troops amass ...? well? why don't you give THOSE IMPORTANT numbers ? maybe 100.000 ?? okay for the sake of argument: Russian had 1000 men there.
    Obviously there are willing/forced to move.
    4. Your disposition is contradictory in that where I and everyone else assumed that North Norway is desolate and thus not many troops would have to be deployed there (be it germans, soviets or special US forces) it turns out the soviets stayed LONGER in Denmark (with much MORE population there, MORE west allied troops there from the onset of 1945).
    So how does that rhyme with your assessment that "stalin should be scared of the Abomb" ?
    5. If Stalin is scared of the 2 A bombs and leaves tail between legs in Norway...WHY DOES HE STAY in Austria, Poland, Baltics, Hungary, Czech.. Japanese Islands.etc..etc.
    Oh wait ! The soviets HAD ALREADY the plans of how to make the Abomb and were frantically working on it.
    And , turning the tables; where do YOU have proof that Stalin is scared of the Abombs of the USA ? and more telling: when did it ever cleared the soviets away from their unwanted presence in the earliest times of nuclear weaponry ?


    in general, take my word for it: if a russian commander gets the order to stay and defend he STAYS and FIGHTS.
    So only stalin would have ordered them russians to leave. Not the local commander, not the North Arctic sector commander, Not the Soviet army commander in chief. only stalin.
    THUS , again, the valid question is: how can a team of local norwegian politicians up there convince the russians to leave ?
     
  7. GRW

    GRW Pillboxologist WW2|ORG Editor

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    Keep it neighbourly, gentlemen.
    On the subject of Bornholm, after the Russians withdrew they declared that any foreign troops (other than Danish) appearing on the island would be considered an act of war against the Soviet Union.
    This book may answer some of the other queries-
    https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=B4KsAgAAQBAJ&pg=PA77&lpg=PA77&dq=russianson+bornholm&source=bl&ots=nCRPoTzARU&sig=njvajAtzxx84KLP8cKNaxcTBEeU&hl=en&sa=X&ei=rGbbVOusJ9GU7QbJsIC4Aw&ved=0CDwQ6AEwAw#v=onepage&q=russianson%20bornholm&f=false
     
  8. green slime

    green slime Member

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    Let me be Joe, because you're already Frank.

    I don't like your tone,

    [​IMG]
     
    4jonboy likes this.
  9. green slime

    green slime Member

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    Dud_really, You are aware of the Yalta agreement?

    Soviet sphere included Poland etc, that was part of the agreement. Norway and Denmark had not been, and never were. The UK feared/suspected Stalin was going to try and pull a fast one, and put steps in place to prevent it, thus the UK occupied the vast majority of Denmark days before the Soviets, and the large influx of Western Allied forces in Norway. The small island of Bornholm, is Danish territory but not Denmark, its not actually even close to Denmark. It's closer to Sweden, and even Northern Germany, than the rest of Denmark.

    Given that the Soviets were arming locals under local leadership to fight Germans, it's fairly certain they never intended to keep Norway, regardless. They just weren't in a strong enough position to force their will upon Norway. Bornholm, as an Island in the Baltic, was much more interesting, even if they missed out on Denmark.

    The reason for a lack of Soviet numbers in Northern Norway? Well, find them yourself. the Soviet 14th Army nominally consisted of 135,000 men, but these covered an enormous area, including northern Finland, an area, with few roads, and those bad, with German sabotage further hindering their movement. They stopped already at the Tana river, so the amount of Norway the Soviets themselves were in was minimal.
     
  10. dude_really

    dude_really Doesn't Play Well With Others

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    yeah, sure, we all read Norsk:
    Forsvarets høgskole

    FHS Brage - høgskolens digitale arkiv

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  11. green slime

    green slime Member

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    What, you need me to tell you how to use Google Translator? Some of it is already in English, for goodness' sake.
     
  12. dude_really

    dude_really Doesn't Play Well With Others

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    Yalta ..yes
    counter question: were the soviets trusted fully by the western counterparts ? or more general, is Stalin trustworthy (and so perceived by the western leaders)?

    And if Stalin is trustworthy then WHY sending the above 43000 troops to N-Norway ?
     
  13. green slime

    green slime Member

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    The 43,000 weren't sent to Northern Norway. They were sent to the economically important part of Norway, the south. It's just saying "Hi, we are here, and we care about Norwegian freedom..."

    And no, Churchill did not trust Stalin. Churchill did not want to give away Eastern Europe, he did not trust Stalin to hold the democratic elections he'd promised. As there was sweet fanny adams the UK could do to evict the Red Army from Eastern Europe, the UK then resolved to prevent similar fates befalling other allies and minors (Greece, Norway). Greece turned into a messy confrontation with local partisans, and various communist organisations, but it is generally acknowledged that Stalin actually did not support the Greek communists, and kept to his word regarding the division of influence (but not the guarantee of free elections).

    Had the UK however not shown such determination, then it is anybody's guess as to the fate of the periferies of Europe (my guesses are not generous towards Stalin).
     

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