The cold war , part two

.

The long awaited answer to the american proposed deployment of an anti missile system in eastern europe

from novosti
MOSCOW, April 26 (RIA Novosti) - Russian President Vladimir Putin proposed Thursday that Russia should suspend the implementation of the Treaty on Conventional Forces in Europe until other parties to the treaty ratify the document.

"I think it is necessary to announce a moratorium on Russia's implementation of the CFE treaty until all NATO countries ratify it and start to strictly adhere to it, as Russia does today unilaterally,"
Putin said.
He also suggested that Russia might consider leaving the CFE treaty if talks with NATO countries show no visible progress in implementation of the treaty in the future.
"I propose discussing this issue in the Russia-NATO Council, and if progress is not reached in negotiations, consider the possibility of terminating our obligations under the CFE Treaty," the Russian leader said.

for information

AGREEMENTS ON CONVENTIONAL FORCES IN EUROPE. The CFE treaty is an arms-control agreement originally negotiated between NATO and the Warsaw Pact as a guarantor of European security in Europe in the waning days of the Cold War.
* The original CFE Treaty took 10 years to negotiate, was signed by 30 states ** in November 1990, and came in to force in 1992. Its aim: to reduce stockpiles of conventional armaments between the Atlantic Ocean and the Ural mountains.

The blocs limited themselves to:
20,000 tanks , 20,000 artillery pieces , 30,000 armored combat vehicles , 6,800 combat aircraft , 2,000 attack helicopters

* The CFE-1A, a 1992 addendum that has resulted in the withdrawal of more than 700,000 troops from Europe since 2001 and the destruction of 50,000 pieces of military equipment by 1995.
* The CFE-II, negotiated in Istanbul in 1999, reflected the new, post-Soviet landscape by setting arms limits for individual countries, rather than zones. The agreement aided NATO's expansion efforts by allowing signatory states to allow foreign forces on their soil.

* NATO states have not ratified the CFE-II due to concerns over Russia's failure to comply with commitments it made during the negotiations. Under the Istanbul Accords, Russia pledged to set a timetable for closing its remaining military bases in Georgia and to completely withdraw its forces from Moldova.
* The CFE-II will come into force once ratified by all 30 CFE signatories. Thus far only Belarus, Kazakhstan, Russia, and Ukraine have ratified the CFE-II.
* In ratifying the agreement in June 2004, Russia called on the signatories not to delay in ratifying the document. Russia expressed concern that Lithuania, Estonia, and Latvia, as nonmembers of the treaty, could possibly harbor NATO troops near its western border.

 

...why does putin continue to stymie the west ...wouldnt russia be better served by a stable prosperous europe , asia and middle east ...is this the old bolshevic disdain and distrust of the democratic capitalist open market thing ....why the attitude ...does it make sense to anyone?
i think though ...if the usa had collapsed and became communist , if we made the leader of the usa always an old top CIA man ,would he be likely to still bear a little grudge vs. his old kgb nemisis...imagine a cia guy indoctrinated from youth to hate communism with a political zeal ...as i imagine any former top kgb man to have been a well versed marxist leninist , right?

 

.

Woody , I hate to break it to you , but , it's the official U.S. policy to restart the cold war .
it took a lot of doing but finaly , the russians gave up being the only ones who tried to care ,
europe is back where it belong , in the warm embrace of the pentagon, alienated from its natural growth area .
condemnned to be the dangly bit at the end of the eurasian plain

an any further pyrotechnics will be fun to watch from australia :smok:

.

 

Ahhh, Putins famous 'rolling back democracy' scheme...
Unfortunately the only remotely democratic system Russia has had in the past... er... ever, has been Yeltsin... One chance to prove democracy might work and it was wasted on a corrupt bureaucracy... Becuase of him the Russians remain suspicious (as ever they were)...

I also hear that theres a spot of bother concerning Russia threatening to cut off oil and gas to Germany and the Ukraine... Boycott the latter's entry into NATO, oh and invade Georgia...

Seems like Ivan's up to his old tricks again

 

Yeah right and missile shield in Poland and Czeh republic will defend NATO against missiles from Iran. Probably most stupid rationale i ever heard (take out a map or a globe to see how stupid this rationale realy is). On the other hand Russsia did adhere to the treaty but since no one else did why should they bother.

About turning of gas and oil to europe, they are planning to build gas and oil pipelines on the Baltic floor from Russia to Germany to avoid future problems with Poland, Ukraine, baltic states... Not exactly project to build if you are intending to cut off suplies anyway. On the other hand they have a good paying cutomer on their south-east border i.e. China.

Cutting off oil and gas to europe was result of ,increasing prices to Ukraine and Byelorussia. Both countries (as Georgia) were supllied with oil and gas according to Russian prices which are significantly lower than market price for both commodities. Russian increased the prices at time of dispute. In Ukranian & byelorussian case this posed the problem as most of piplines going west to Europe run trough these two countries and they simply took their supplies from contingents going to Europe which in turn resulted in Russians closing the lines. Good old market economy: If you don't want to pay we'll close the lines.


Russian problems with Georgia and Moldova (as well as Ukraine) go deeper than just trade diputes. Both republic have large Russian speaking minorities which are result of populations moving about (we have similar situation in ex. Yugoslavia) and artificialy changing borders of former soviet republics. Now they are all waiting judgment on Kosovo as it will present a precendance case.
Abkhazia is a breakaway part of Georgia that is de facto independant same goes for Trans-Dniestria in Moldavia. In both territories Russia still has military presence there in guise of peacekeepers and has no intention of leaving russian speaking population to hang out to dry (reason for latest collision with Georgia - arresting of Russian military officers as spies by Georgia).
Similar case is breakaway part of Azerbeijan which has runnig dipute with Armenia about Nagorniy Karabakh which is populated with Armenians and is de facto independant and now almost part of Armenia (supported by Russia). All these regions saw intense civil wars during braking up of SSSR which were more or less stoped by than red army (now Russian army). This poses a huge problem for US and NATO who are commited to Kosovo independance. That would result in cousing problems for their allies in Caucasus (Georgia and Azerbaijan) if Russians are still in place. This is main reason for pressure put on Russia to remove them and Russian reaction to that.

Another problem is US & NATO involment in former SSSR republics which russians percive as maddling into their buffer zone and their spheare of influence (same as US percives Chinese and Russian agreaments with Venezuela). Their trade embargoes are no different to US embargoes to some countries all over the world.

Woody i hate to break this to you, but Bush senior ( you know ex CIA boss) does fit your description. And one can only imagine indoctrination that current president (Bush jr.) and his brothers got as kids.

 

.

At the Oslo meeting condoleeza spoke of the proposed missile being no threat to the "soviet " arsenal , she then affirmed with a straight face that countries should respect treaties , this from an administration who broke the anti balistic treaty like if it was a piece of toilet paper and ride rough shod ove the aggrements on the demilitarisation of space

as for the attitude of theU.S. administration
- consistently blocked the menbership of russia to the world trade organisation
- refusal to trade with russia on a normal basis ( the jackson law , to promote emigration of jews out of the soviet union , is still in effect )
- slapped trade ban on two major russian arm companies , sukoi and rosoboexport
-recently passed a budget of several millions $us to favorise the accession of georgia and ukraine to NATO , reinforced by an executive order from g.w. B.
a touching example of harmony between the executive and legislative branch

every slight wich could be slapped into putin face was done , from a pointed visit to latvia , proud of their nazi past , during the celebration of victory day fiftieth anniversary to VP cheney abusing russia during a recent tour .
this state of affairs is no accident but a deliberate policy implemented consistently over years .

the recent lament over yeltsin is a perfect illustration of what the U.S. believe to be a good russian leader ,
a drunken sot , firing tanks on any democratic oposition , seeped into corruption and giving free reins to plunderring by foreign multinationals while his people beg in the streets :-?


.

 

Jeaguar i completly agree with you.

BTW

Which is resulting in the fact that Russians are now doing most of their bussines with China and India (and Iran). Especcialy in areas concerning weapons and rocket industry. Which is pissing of US, as those imense weapons markets are closed to them and in case of china thay are getting latest high-tech waponary which is contrary to US interests in SEA and EA. just check the panic that was coused by Chinese blasting one of their old satelites.

Trade ban was slaped on Sukhoi becouse they are selling Su-27 fighters to Venezuela and they also got order from Mexican navy. I guess somone lost the competition.
Rosobronexport was banned becouse at the time it was buying a worlds largest producer of Titanium (some small russian firm) that Boeing wanted to buy. Both firms are now AFAIK not under sanctions any more as that would hurt US companies (especialy Boeing -joint project with sukhoi and large quantities of titaniun needed) more than it would hurt Russians.

To which Russians replied with market prices for oil and gas. Why should they continue to subsidise their gas and oli if they are letting US and NATO in. Since US gave them money they should now be able to pay for their oil and gas.

Why do you think Russia is standing behind Iran in this latest mess in the gulf? US actions forced russians to seek new strategic allies in China, India and Iran. They and Chinese are also seeking favours in Venezuela. With those few countries thay could control large parts of global oil bussines. Venezuela has largest oil reserves if you count in heavy oil, Russia and Iran reserves are also immense and China (with significant oil bussines in Sudan, Ethiopia, Libia) and India are now two of the biggest consumers. Why do you think Iranians got new Thor-M AA systems during the height of US mumblings about invanding this country. It was simple thing of Russians countering US. Same goes for Chinese shipments of new surface to ship missiles which would be a huge problem if US decides and attacks Iran. Same goes for Russian shipments of new AT missiles to Syria....

 

What is really absolutely hilarious is that there is only one country who will actually need to de-militarise to comply with those standards.

Can you guess who it is?

 

China? Wait, they are not involved...

 

.

I don't see china signing a piece of paper , it's not something they value very much
while the U.S. fiddle in europe and the middle east ,asia and africa are turning red hot chilli china ,
japan and formosa are having the smiling thumb screw treatment , even in OZ their influence is growing fast .

.

 

Chinese are smart. Looking their decisions from Dengs time onward is like looking a game of chess by a master. They are always few moves ahead and they are planning their actions far ahead. Example: When Deng alloved Chinese students to go to US and European universities he said if few of them return after their studies to China thats good anyway as those who will stay in the west are hardworking and will create their own bussines and when time is right thay will come back and they will invest in China. Chinese are Chinese no matter where they are.

Now back to Russia

 

.

..............the borg !!

U.S. have been manicheans since the pilgrims ,
with a strong apocalyptic side rekindled by their revivals movements ,
exaltation need to pit itself against pure evil , russia fulfil this need , the fact that russians don't want to play is irrelevant
its the symbolic of the western , black hats Vs white hats...the meaning of life

by golly , painted bad they are and bad they will be !!!! we need them bad

:roll: :roll:

there used to be diplomacy around foggy bottom , now there is only mad spin


.

 

I realy don't get that mantra: Us good, them bad/evil blah, blah, blah BS.


It's same BS that we were listening during communist times. At least we knew it's propaganda, but some now realy belive this shit.

 

Oh yeah, that's right. Eastern Europeans have a natural tendency to question the media which us Western Europeans lack. :roll:

TISO, I don't know where you pulled that from. Just put it back, because its not true. Your an intelligent guy and I enjoy reading your posts, but blanket statements like that just won't cut it.

It's not like all Americans (or Westerners) agree with the current administration. What was the result of the election? 49%-51% or something IIRC. I don't know if you have ever been to America, or any Western countries for that matter. Maybe you should pay the country a visit before becoming an expert on it and the beliefs of its peoples.

 

.


having been in both country , IMHO there is a grain of truth , grown into a monstrous pumpkin , in Tiso argument
the same principles apply , edition of facts , glorification of the armed forces , creating an imminent threat , condemning all dissent as traitorous
the soviet propaganda had however little credibility amongst it's people
while the mainline infotainment style is swallowed eagerly by the entertained masses

" panem et circenses "


.

 

On a matter of interest, where in the east have you been jeag?

 

.


city of Tcherepovets in the vologda oblast , it's 500 kliks north of moscow
successfully comissionning a phosphoric acid plant for a belgium company from 2 january 1980 to march 1982 ,
the week before I came , brejnev invaded afghanistan , the summer it was the moscow olympics ,
since I came for three weeks , all my clothes were destroyed by the acid , I was wearing univermag issue togs , got a kgb pass for moscow , the windows were full of nice shirts , asked in russian for one and was told by a big woman " F...k off peasant , this is for the tourists "

returned twice to get drunk cheap and visit friends , under yeltsin the place was a dump

I only travelled in the states , driving an impala from new orleans to philadelpia , along the mississipi , the nachez trace and tenesee river following the battlefields and the music trail , with a bit of amtrack from L.A. and some trip up to maine
the more north one's drive the more edgy the drivers become
charleston cops are the most polished and gentlemanly , went there to check beauregard grave and calhoun's , the grave of the later is still honored by the way

P.S. vancouver is the second best city in the world , no contest


.

 

Even travelling in a country - or staying there for almost a year! - does not teach you everything about its people. I would never try to claim that I knew the general opinion of a country, or there sincere beliefs, unless I had significant experience with it. I will take your word for typical Eastern perspectives on media.

It vexes me when you accuse such things without a shred of evidence or experience in the subject, TISO.

 

.


And rightly so . I never claimed expertise on "Eastern perspective " but have personnal views on some russian attitudes ,
considering the crass ignorance of most article in the press it's probably as valid as most
to take an exalted case , tocqueville travelled for less than a year in " america " and wrote a text who remained valid for more than 150 years , and yes I read it
my view on western media are based on the study of it , within the confine of the language barrier ,
those view are parallel to some held by more intelligent people than me ,
a cursory check of facts usually demonstrate that most media outlet follows each other stories like a hunting pack , a lot of different voices running after each others but always obey their masters


.

 

All i can say in my defence is that i love to analise things especialy political and war situations and media reporting of it. I addmit that i tend to overanalise sometimes.
For some of my claims you don't have to go far. Acctualy you don't even have to leave this forum, just read some of the comments from some other members (woody and grieg would be a good place to start ).

As for my agitprop claims i distinctly remember that we had debate on this or similar topic. IIRC some claims were made that some media outlets are propaganda (left/right/whatever) and others real news. Unfortunatly my experince is that this is not true, not by a long shot. Each has it's own perspective on certain subject and it is invariably tainted with some bias. One also has to take into account that most media are dependant on big bussines as source of income (commercials...) and their souces of information (ussualy in the goverment) to stay in the game (result of this is ussualy arse kissing). So when you look at it, it is ussualy fairly one sided reporting no matter the "bias" certain outlet has. Difference with east and west is basicly that we are much more cynical in this respect (at least some of us).

I belive it was Goebless who said that "poeple are sheep" and "if you repeat a lie long enough it will become truth". Unfortunatly this holds to the test. Since fall of the communism in my country when most of the poeple did not realy belive the media (for obvious reasons), things did "progress" to the point that media started to be belived (result was 12 year rule of kleprocratic parties that had media under control). And when ruling parties did change and started to democratise the media (even if communism did fall 15 years ago), those who were the most hard line in defending and personally attacking anyone/anything that could threaten cleptocraty in power (camparison with FOX news is obvious here) somehow became the only "democratic and truly independant" jurnalists/media outlets and public swallowed hook, line & sinker. Maybe we are not cynical enough anymore. :cry:


P.S.
See I manged to bring FOX news only once (OK twice if you count this one ) into my post.

P.P.S.
Interesting article
Reportes = Foriegn spies?:
http://blog.wired.com/defense/2007/05/reporters_forei.html