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The consolidated Pearl Harbor mythology thread.

Discussion in 'Pearl Harbor' started by OpanaPointer, Oct 3, 2009.

  1. OpanaPointer

    OpanaPointer I Point at Opana Staff Member WW2|ORG Editor

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  2. Michael Timothy Griffith

    Michael Timothy Griffith Member

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    Your dismissive attitude on this issue suggests that your reading has been very one-sided. A whole bunch of admirals, generals, and other senior officers, along with many politicians, believed that FDR provoked war with Japan, knew Pearl Harbor would be attacked, and withheld vital intel from Kimmel and Short in order to get us into WW II, and that FDR and other high officials smeared and scapegoated Kimmel and Short to cover up their conspiracy.

    Based on a wide range of private whistleblowing disclosures, Gov. Thomas Dewey, the 1944 Republican presidential candidate, became so convinced that FDR had purposely allowed the Pearl Harbor attack to happen that he told one of General Marshall's senior aides that FDR should be impeached for it. Dewey was going to make FDR's treachery a campaign issue, but Marshall persuaded him not to raise the issue by falsely telling him that doing so would alert the Japanese that we had broken most of their codes. If Dewey had known about Marshall's pivotal role in the Pearl Harbor betrayal, he would have ignored Marshall's lies.

    Admiral William "Bull" Halsey believed that FDR had known Pearl Harbor would be attacked and that FDR and his allies in the War Department had disgracefully smeared Kimmel and Short. Halsey even wrote the strongly worded foreword for Admiral Theobald's book The Final Secret of Pearl Harbor.

    Admiral James O. Richardson's, Admiral Kimmel's predecessor as commander of the Pacific Fleet, likewise believed that FDR had advance knowledge of the attack and allowed it to happen to get us into WW II. Richardson also minced no words about the Roosevelt administration's shameful scapegoating of Kimmel and Short.

    Don C. Smith, the Red Cross War Services Director in 1941, told his daughter after the war that he was certain that FDR knew that Pearl Harbor would be attacked, and that FDR let the attack happen to get us into WW II. His daughter came forward with this information, in writing, in 1995 when she read about efforts to restore the ranks of Admiral Kimmel and General Short.

    And on and on and on I could go.

    Are you aware of these facts? If not, then your reading has been markedly incomplete. Were Dewey, Halsey, Richardson, and Smith "stupid" people who wore "orthopedic hats"?
     
  3. Biak

    Biak Boy from Illinois Staff Member

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    MTG makes a good point here showing that accusations based on political animosity with no actual proof can lead to years of controversy and conspiracy theories.
    Makes ya think doesn't it ?

    Based on a wide range of private whistleblowing disclosures, Gov. Thomas Dewey, the 1944 Republican presidential candidate, became so convinced that FDR had purposely allowed the Pearl Harbor attack to happen that he told one of General Marshall's senior aides that FDR should be impeached for it. Dewey was going to make FDR's treachery a campaign issue, but Marshall persuaded him not to raise the issue by falsely telling him that doing so would alert the Japanese that we had broken most of their codes. If Dewey had known about Marshall's pivotal role in the Pearl Harbor betrayal, he would have ignored Marshall's lies.

     
  4. R Leonard

    R Leonard Member

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    Easier to deal with a paragraph at a time . . .


    How did he know?
    Who told him, please name names.
    How did that person or those persons find out that Pearl Harbor would be attacked at approximately 0755 7 December 1941?
    When did that person or those persons discover this information?
    When did they, specifically, tell FDR of this attack?

    Exactly what "vital intel" was withheld from from Kimmel and Short?

    Short and Kimmel were the senior officers on the scene who had absolute authority to make any and all decisions regarding the defense of Pearl Harbor and the Pacific Fleet.

    What steps did they take?
    What steps should they have taken?

    Senior decision makers who fail in their decision making are quite often relieved and replaced, you've never noticed that?
     
  5. OpanaPointer

    OpanaPointer I Point at Opana Staff Member WW2|ORG Editor

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    Nothing changed in the fifty plus years I've been reading on this topic.

    Yo, Timmy, bet you haven't read as many books as I have on Pearl Harbor. I base that bet on the idiotic things I've seen posted.
     
  6. OpanaPointer

    OpanaPointer I Point at Opana Staff Member WW2|ORG Editor

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    No, Timmy, just you. Richardson did say two different things depending on whether or not he was under oath.
     
  7. Slipdigit

    Slipdigit Good Ol' Boy Staff Member WW2|ORG Editor

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    The thing I keep noticing is that we are encouraged vehemently to read the evidence but none is ever posted.
    Hmmmmm.
     
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  8. Takao

    Takao Ace

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    People believe in Sasqwatch, Angels, Aliens, God, etc., they cannot prove it, but they believe in it...

    Belief does not mean said belief is the truth.

    What was that line from a popular movie...It doesn't matter what I believe. It only matters what I can prove.

    Great movie. Some military courtroom drama.
     
  9. Michael Timothy Griffith

    Michael Timothy Griffith Member

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    So Dewey, Halsey, Theobold, Smith, Richardson, etc., etc., all said that FDR knew Pearl Harbor would be attacked based only on "political animosity"? How about Col. Bissell, Col. Ketchum, Captain (USN) Safford, Ogg, Hosmer, Admiral Tolley, Stahlman, Admiral Ranneft, Leib, Congressman Dies, etc., etc. etc.--they, too, just made up this claim because of political animosity? Leib was a New Deal Democrat. Dies was a Democratic member of Congress. Admiral Ranneft was not even an American but was the Dutch naval attache to DC before and during the war.

    "With no actual proof"? I'm guessing you don't know what evidence we're talking about regarding these men. Bissell, Ogg, Hosmer, and Ranneft had firsthand knowledge that U.S. intelligence had been tracking the Japanese task force. Safford knew for a fact that the East Wind Rain execute message was intercepted by no later than 5 December because he processed the message and forwarded it to Admiral Noyes. Dies had firsthand knowledge that the State Department knew that Pearl Harbor would be attacked because he personally notified Secretary of State Hull about the Japanese military map that his committee investigators had obtained that showed Pearl Harbor would be assaulted.

    The Dies evidence is corroborated by New Dealer Joseph Leib, who later revealed that Hull, a good friend of his, had disclosed to him that FDR knew several days in advance that Pearl Harbor would be attacked.

    Stahlman's account dovetails with Dies's and Leib's reports. Stahlman and Secretary of the Navy Frank Knox were close, longtime friends. In 1973, Stahlman informed Admiral Tolley, in writing, that after the bombing, Knox told him that he attended a meeting at the White House the night before the attack and that the meeting discussed the impending attack on Pearl Harbor. Stahlman added that Knox decided to reveal this information to him because he was so shocked by the amount of damage done at Pearl Harbor and because he was bothered that his 6 December warning never reached the naval command in Hawaii.

    Knox's shock at the damage the Japanese did brings up a crucial point: FDR, Knox, Marshall, Stark, and others who were part of the plot did not believe the Japanese would be able to inflict serious damage on Pearl Harbor. They regarded the Japanese as racially inferior and as poor fighters, and as especially poor pilots. Before Pearl Harbor, Knox told a group of businessmen that if the U.S. and Japan went to war, there would be nothing to worry about because the U.S. would defeat Japan in a matter of months.

    Thus, FDR and his top officials did not think they were putting the fleet and/or Pearl Harbor at great risk. They thought that the Japanese would do minimal damage to the ships and military facilities there, and they thought that the U.S. would easily and quickly defeat Japan after the attack.
     
  10. OpanaPointer

    OpanaPointer I Point at Opana Staff Member WW2|ORG Editor

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    Buddha save me from a man who had only ever read one book.

    Speaking of which, have you finished reading the forty volumes of The Congressional Investigation Into the Attack on Pearl Harbor?
     
  11. Michael Timothy Griffith

    Michael Timothy Griffith Member

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    That's a curious question coming from someone whose reading clearly has been one-sided and incomplete. Yes, I've read the JCC volumes. Have you read the Navy Court of Inquiry's report and the APHB's report? Here are some books I would recommend that you read before you comment further:

    Horne, Douglas. Deception, Intrigue, and the Road to War: A Chronology of Significant Events Detailing President Franklin D. Roosevelt's Successful Effort to Bring a United America into the War Against Germany During the Second World War. Two volumes. On-Demand Publishing, 2017. Horne holds a degree in history, is a former Navy officer, and served as a chief staff member for the Assassination Records Review Board in the 1990s. (By the way, as you might guess from the title, Horne actually believes that FDR was justified in allowing Pearl Harbor to be attacked.)

    Greaves, Percy. Pearl Harbor: The Seeds and Fruits of Infamy. Auburn: Ludwig von Mises Institute, 2010. Greaves served as counsel for the Republican minority of the JCC. This book destroys the traditionalist attacks on Kimmel and Short and exposes the shameful machinations that led to their smearing and dismissal.

    Gannon, Michael. Pearl Harbor Betrayed: The True Story of a Man and a Nation Under Attack. New York: Henry Holt & Company, 2001. A professor of history, Gannon methodically debunks the traditionalist attacks on Kimmel and Short and shows just how much vital intelligence was withheld from them.

    Nave, Eric and James Rusbridger. Betrayal at Pearl Harbor: How Churchill Lured Roosevelt into World War II. New York: Summit Books, 1991. Nave and Rusbridger document that the "East Wind Rain" execute message was intercepted at a British intelligence station near Hong Kong, that British intelligence personnel were able to track the Japanese fleet for most of its journey, that they knew the target was Pearl Harbor, and that they knew the attack would be on the weekend of 7 December. Former CIA Director William Casey, in his book The Secret War Against Hitler, wrote that the British warned the Americans that the Japanese were going to attack Pearl Harbor (The Secret War Against Hitler, Washington, D.C.: Regnery Gateway, 1988, p. 7). (By the way, Nave was a highly regarded cryptographer and intelligence officer during WW II.)

    Toland, John. Infamy: Pearl Harbor and Its Aftermath. Anchor Books Edition. New York: Doubleday, 1992. Toland's book caused shockwaves when it was published because Toland was an award-winning historian who had previously accepted the traditional story. Toland's book took skepticism about the traditional story into the mainstream. Many scholars who later wrote their own books questioning the traditional story said they became willing to reexamine the subject because of Toland's book.

    Victor, George. The Pearl Harbor Myth: Rethinking the Unthinkable. Washington, D.C.: Potomac Books, 2007. Dr. Victor, author of the best-selling book Hitler: The Pathology of Evil, applies his careful and thorough analytical skills to the Pearl Harbor attack. When Victor decided to write a book about Pearl Harbor, he entered the endeavor believing in the traditional account, but he soon changed his mind as he studied the subject further. This is one of the most scholarly and reasoned examinations of the evidence of advance knowledge in print.

    Theobald, Robert. The Final Secret of Pearl Harbor. New York: Devin-Adair, 1954. Theobald was a Navy admiral during World War II. He came to believe that FDR allowed Pearl Harbor to be attacked in order to overcome the public's opposition to entering the war and that he unfairly and dishonestly scapegoated Kimmel and Short. It is significant that Admiral Halsey agreed to write such a strong foreword for Theobald's book.

    Nash, George. Freedom Betrayed: Herbert Hoover’s Secret History of the Second World War and Its Aftermath. Hoover Institution Press, 2011. Nash earned his doctorate in history from Harvard University. Drawing on a wealth of disclosed data, Nash agrees that FDR and other high officials knew that Pearl Harbor was going to be attacked.

    Layton, Edwin, with Roger Pineau and John Costello. And I Was There: Pearl Harbor and Midway—Breaking the Secrets. New York: Quill, 1985. Layton was the Fleet Intelligence Officer of the Pacific Fleet under Admiral Kimmel and then Admiral Nimitz. He was shocked and outraged when he learned about all the intelligence that had been withheld from Admiral Kimmel. Although at times Layton said he did not believe that FDR had conspired to bring about the Japanese attack, he also said the following in his book:

    -- Some senior military officers lied about where they were and what they knew the day before and the day of the attack.

    -- Some high officials had prevented key warnings from being sent to Pearl Harbor.

    -- The failure to tell Admiral Kimmel about the bomb plot messages was inexcusable.

    -- FDR may indeed have held a secret war council at the White House on the night of 6 December to discuss the impending attack on Pearl Harbor.

    -- Secretary Knox may in fact have sent a late-night warning to Pearl Harbor on 6 December warning of an impending attack, but somehow it never reached Hawaii. (Note that Knox mentioned his 6 December warning, twice, in his 14 December report to FDR, and no one disputed that Knox had sent the warning. Only years later did traditionalists begin to attack Knox's account of sending the 6 December warning to Pearl Harbor.)

    -- Some senior military officers and high officials lied in order to place all the blame on Admiral Kimmel and General Short.

    -- The possibility of an attack on Pearl Harbor had been discussed by senior military officers less than a year before the attack occurred.

    -- Some high officials tried to cover up the fact that the "East Wind Rain" execute message had been broadcast and intercepted before the attack.
     
  12. OpanaPointer

    OpanaPointer I Point at Opana Staff Member WW2|ORG Editor

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    So you haven't read those books. If you had you'd be very embarrassed. And look less stupid.
     
    Last edited: Jan 23, 2022
  13. Biak

    Biak Boy from Illinois Staff Member

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    So you know and can post the evidence - not hearsay - that Dewey's outrage was not politically motivated to be used as fodder to stir up the republican base ? Would you explain the statement that Dewey became convinced FDR allowed the attack and provide the audio of that conversation you had with him.

    I'm going to sit back and enjoy the Show from here on out. If there's one thing I've learned in the last Oh say 5-6 years, it's useless to engage with those who refuse to accept a simple request. Show us evidence not interpretations. Show us the Memos not infer to them. Answer the question(s) don't deflect.

    Have fun guys.
     
  14. OpanaPointer

    OpanaPointer I Point at Opana Staff Member WW2|ORG Editor

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  15. ltdan

    ltdan Active Member

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    Yawn
    One should generally refrain from presenting suspicions, suppositions, and hypotheses without reliable primary sources as statements of fact.
    Plus, Mr. G spot pulls out all the stops from the same old bag of tricks that certain circles used as early as the early Middle Ages to prove the existence of angels or far worse:
    All quotations are either secondary sources without proof of the origin of the information, are reproduced out of context and to top it all off, they are also created as circular reasoning...

    IMHO everyone may disqualify himself as thoroughly as he likes, but this kind of pseudo-scientific tales from the crypt belongs rather in forums. which deal with the inner earth or reptile people under the Himalaya

    I'm just waiting for the "magic" moment when he proves that Japan was about to surrender in late March '45 because Tokyo was told (by usually secret channels) that a certain Ju 390 carrying a certain atomic bomb would no longer fly to New York.....
     
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  16. OpanaPointer

    OpanaPointer I Point at Opana Staff Member WW2|ORG Editor

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    Do we get Nazi UFOs flying from the super secret base in Antarctica?
     
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  17. Michael Timothy Griffith

    Michael Timothy Griffith Member

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    The fact that Dewey, based on information from whistleblowers, became convinced that FDR had allowed the Pearl Harbor attack to occur has been discussed by numerous scholars. When this fact came to light thanks to John Toland, even the Washington Post acknowledged it in an article:

    U.S. Pleaded With Dewey on Code-Breaking Secret - The Washington Post

    The article omits a few key facts, but it does note that Dewey became convinced that FDR had advance knowledge of Pearl Harbor and that George Marshall dissuaded him from going public with the issue on the grounds that it would harm national security.

    The problem is that you and your fellow time travelers here have not read anything except books that repeat the official tale. You guys don't seem to be aware of the disclosures that have come to light about Pearl Harbor.

    I'm still waiting for any of you to come up with a rational, serious response to the Hoover-Ladd memos, which document that the head of the Army G2 Counterintelligence Branch told the FBI that Army intelligence knew about the Pearl Harbor attack several days in advance from Japanese intercepts. Part of what makes the Hoover-Ladd memos so important is that they were never intended to see the light of day. Hoover and Ladd wrote them with the assumption that they would remain secret.

    And if you guys ever do decide to offer a serious response to the Hoover-Ladd memos, you might address the fact that Col. Carlton Ketchum revealed in his memoir that Hoover knew about Pearl Harbor in advance and that Hoover told him that FDR likewise had advance knowledge. When Ketchum was contacted about his memoir after Toland quoted his revelation in Infamy, he confirmed every detail.

    I mean, at some point, somewhere in the back of your mind, it should occur to you that it is not credible or reasonable to claim that all these dozens of people were lying or "mistaken." When several dozen people reveal mutually corroborating information, and when they do so independently of each other and at widely varying times, at some point you have to start taking it seriously and adjust your paradigm.
     
  18. OpanaPointer

    OpanaPointer I Point at Opana Staff Member WW2|ORG Editor

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    The mysteries were cleared up after the war. You're just 70 years behind.
     
  19. ltdan

    ltdan Active Member

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    We are still waiting for a highlighted passage from these memos that shows beyond doubt that they KNEW about the attack.
    A tip on this: When we say knew, we do NOT mean "Therefore, one can imagine" or similar mumbo-jumbo caused by hindsight wisdom
    In short, this would be THE opportunity to clearly prove your hypothesis. I am very curious to see what follows....
     
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  20. OpanaPointer

    OpanaPointer I Point at Opana Staff Member WW2|ORG Editor

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    The "Japanese intercepts", more fiction. Even "Niitaka Nobore 12-8" didn't specify a target, especially since it was the "go" order for the troops invading the Southern Resources Area as well as the Nagumo Kido Butai.

    But here's a source for any intercepts you might be referencing. The "Magic" Background To Pearl Harbor It was fun converting that to digital format.
     
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