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The European Union

Discussion in 'The Stump' started by Ben Dover, Nov 12, 2016.

  1. Sheldrake

    Sheldrake Member

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    This is brexit post truth bollox.

    #1 The Eu was formed as a response to the endemic conflicts which have plagued the continent for centuries. The development of nation states in the C18-19th did not lead to peace and stability, but two world wars and their revolutionary aftermath that left tens of million dead and a similar number of refugees. Pooling sovereignty and the four freedoms of good services capital and people were there to diffuse the tensions that were at the heart of many of the conflicts. People don't live tidily in borders and xenophobia is a common human frailty. Many current day problems require the resources of more than one country, or require a common response. e.g. balance of power between global companies and governments; scientific collaboration, ecology; refugees; security etc. Membership of a free trade area has benefited Britons, but it isn't what the EU is about

    #2 EU citizens have as much say in who leads the EU as the British public do about their prime minister. In bioth cases the leader is appointed by democratically elected representatives.

    #3 Brexit was less of a cry for independence than a long standing British tradition of blaming foreigners when times are tough.
     
  2. Skipper

    Skipper Kommodore

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    I hope you're right Ben, at least for Britain's sake, but I'm afraid you are heading for a big hangover and dreams of past glory . Britain alone vs the world will not work. How will you negociate with the world powers when your former allies become competitors? As to refugees, Britain has signed international treaties and leaving the E.U would not stop the flood.
     
  3. belasar

    belasar Court Jester Staff Member

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    You seem to forget that the Birth of a 'United States' of America was hardly a easy or quick event despite popular myth.

    Initially the Continental Congress had 16 'Presidents' over 14 years, 8 more during the 8 years of the Articles of Confederation until the adoption of the Constitution which gave us our recognized 'first' President, George Washington. The common flaw for our first 24 Presidents was weak powers of the office as well as the national government. The individual states were unwilling to yield power to a central authority.

    The Constitution gave the President, and the national government, enough power to operate as a nation of states rather than a grudging collection of states in a often loose alliance, jealous of their individual perks. It was not a perfect system evidenced by the creaky stop gap measures to prevent a civil war, measures that eventually failed leading to what is still our most costly conflict in our history. That civil war greatly solidified a central, national authority while largely ending the 'states rights' argument in the grand sense.

    There are still echos of this to our modern history and a growing feeling that perhaps it has gone too far, or is soon to do so.

    The positive element is that trough most of our history people of one region has found common cause with those of other regions. It helps greatly that we have a common language and largely common heritage. Not having significant local threats on our borders can not be discounted either, but at its core the strong has been willing to compromise with the weak. If the members of the EU are willing to do that it will survive and thrive. If not, it will eventually disintegrate into a collection nations out for only themselves whatever the cost to their neighbors.
     
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  4. Takao

    Takao Ace

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    President of the Continental Congress is hardly comparable to President of the United States. It's like comparing the janitor to the CEO.
     
  5. lwd

    lwd Ace

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    That's why I stated that the US didn't have a head of state during that period. I guess it could be debated but it would come down to the nuances of how you define the term.
     
  6. GRW

    GRW Pillboxologist WW2|ORG Editor

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    Yeah, 'cos only the British working classes do that, apparently-

    "Earlier this month, Rome welcomed 8,074 refugees into the city, sparking protest marches."
    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-4037094/There-risk-war-Rome-verge-violence-deprived-Italians-react-angrily-migrants-moving-neighbourhoods-warns-mayor.html#ixzz4SwY0Si3T


    "A new grass-roots movement that assails the German government for ignoring its fears of being overrun by Muslims and other immigrants attracted a record 15,000 marchers on Monday in the eastern city of Dresden."
    http://www.reuters.com/article/germany-immigration-protests-idUSKBN0JT2J120141215
     
  7. Sheldrake

    Sheldrake Member

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    I was not suggesting we were alone in blaming foreigners.

    But your post illustrates the xenophobic link made during the referendum campaign between EU membership and fears of the refugee crisis.

    Instability in the Middle east and North Africa is precisely the kind of problem that needs to be met by a concerted European response rather by terrified Brits pulling up the draw bridge at Calais and twitching the curtains across the channel. Furthermore, the middle east crisis has be exacerbated by British supported interventions in Iraq and Libya. This seems to be an argument in favour of greater co-operation between European states. To quote CDS on Wednsday night; you cannot defend on the goal line of the cliffs of Dover.

    At a macro level, Europe, including Britain needs an in flux of young people to support its aging population. The self same people who voted to exit the Europe to cut immigration are the people most in need fo cheap labour because they fear are jobs in the UK and at is as true of Britain as on the continent.
     
  8. GRW

    GRW Pillboxologist WW2|ORG Editor

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    No, I think you're getting confused with your own comment-



    I'm not a racist, I'm not old enough to remember the British Empire never bloody mind get nostalgic for it.
     
  9. GRW

    GRW Pillboxologist WW2|ORG Editor

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    Again, not just the British who have immigration concerns-
    "SWISS politicians have sparked outrage after ignoring a historic referendum vote to end freedom of movement.
    A majority of voters backed a proposal to cap immigration from EU member states in the landmark poll, held two years ago.
    But MPs today defied the will of the people by voting against placing any cap on EU migrants.
    It came after fears the country, which is part of the European Free Trade Association, could lose its access to the single market."
    http://www.express.co.uk/news/world/744290/Switzerland-immigration-referendum-mass-migration-European-Union
     
  10. green slime

    green slime Member

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  11. belasar

    belasar Court Jester Staff Member

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    Quite Right they are!
     
  12. GRW

    GRW Pillboxologist WW2|ORG Editor

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    Where's William Tell when they need him?!
     
  13. FalkeEins

    FalkeEins Member

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    says he (Sheldrake). That was just about the most mis-informed post I've ever read on this forum (from Sheldrake). Looks like you need a history lesson Sheldrake.. here it is put simply..

    1/ Churchill was one of the first proponents of an "EU" for France & Germany post-war to stop Franco-German disputes. The problem was France and Germany in Europe. The British rescued Europe from one French dictator in the 19th century and then helped rescue Europe from another one in the 20th, this time German, who incidentally murdered millions while stomping about all over Europe.

    2/ Germany had invaded France three times within the space of 75 years. Ultimately though the French got on very well with their new friends. " I wish for a German victory" said their Prime minister Laval in 1940-42 (yes, that is an actual quote..) Hundreds of thousands of French went to work in German factories. Tens of thousands of French Jews went on a long train ride even though the Germans had never asked for them to be sent on one. Churchill meanwhile had already proposed political union with France in 1940 as a bulwark to the Germans and been rejected. Churchill saw Britain outside the Franco-German union post-war obviously.

    3/ Post war another French 'dictator' De Gaulle turned his back on Britain - despite the fact that we had rescued him from total obscurity and effectively bankrolled his French and imperialist ambitions - essentially because he didn't like our friendship with our Allies (the US) who had saved us from that German dictator I mentioned. De Gaulle refused to let us join the original EU (the Common Market - what was it supposed to be? well, its in the name! ) and flounced out of NATO. This after putting in place a new Constitution to safeguard his 'dictatorship' (the 5th Republic). Subsequently the EU has managed to do what Hitler and Napoleon singularly failed to do - impose their hegemony over Europe. At the risk of stating the obvious , no-one in Britain elects Tusk or Juncker - the British opposed the nomination of that tinpot little dictator and were ignored. Juncker is not an elected representative !

    4/ Quite what the EU's dictators thought they were doing when they extended the EU to the Baltic states and tried to entice the Ukraine in too, causing a major conflict in the process, I simply do not know. Even the French are having a problem with the idea that the Turks are next in line to come in.

    5/ Britain accepted the free movement of Poles, Romanians, Bulgarians, Lithuanians etc etc in good faith. We even said they could come and work in our country while the French and Germans imposed severe restrictions on who could come and work for 5-10 years. We were told a few tens of thousands would come to the UK - we got well over a million, probably two, and hundreds of thousands are still coming every year - that's internal EU migration for you. We respected the "four freedoms" for a long time - France and Germany didn't ..and now they're telling us we really must do as they say. Nothing to do by the way with Merkels' (Muslim) millions - who after five years will all be EU citizens anyway. The canny British voter turned round and told them to go take a jump!

    6/ Now all the talk is of 'punishing' Britain for having dared to stand up (once again) to Continental European dictators. Let us see how they all get on without the British taxpayer's millions every week ( UK net contributor, 4th largest currently).



     
  14. Ben Dover

    Ben Dover Active Member

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    If the Eurozone collapses because the economies don't add up, what do you think'll happen?
    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/business/2016/10/16/euro-house-of-cards-to-collapse-warns-ecb-prophet/

    Since when was I concerned about refugees? If there was no floods of EU migrants from Romania, then maybe we could let in more Syrians?
     
  15. Skipper

    Skipper Kommodore

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    Well, maybe the EU should stop holding refugees back and stop spending fortunes to keep immigrants away from crossing the Channel and get some pocket money from the Uk in return (compared to what the Eu spends to keep them on our side of the Channel.) + We have U.K customs based on French territory to keep them away from those who are" not concerned". We are even silly enough to try and convince them not to "invade you" and send them to places where they are not always welcome instead. While I understand your concern about your independece (so am I, and don' want those refugees either, except we have them and we are both in the same Union) , leaving the Union would lead us to send you some of "our" refugees, then you'd know what "flooding" means and you'd regret the good old times when the EU stopped at least some of them . And don't tell the UK would be able to stop them and send them back. (or give us the recipe please) . IF you leave the EU , you"ll have more refugees, but your politiicans won't tell you that. See what happens in Lampeduzza, Ceuta, Mellilla etc.. The Channel won't hold them back. The UK is tied by International conventions and they can't simply send away Syrians when they show up, even if they want to .
     
  16. FalkeEins

    FalkeEins Member

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    read that and weep Sheldrake ..

    and Skipper I was driving around Calais only the other day - there are now no signs of any migrants or any interference from migrants at all. Now that your government actually took the matter in hand two years later. The French signed Schengen for free movement - the British didn't, so don't blame us! That is the border. The problem in Calais was a lack of will to do anything by your French authorities for a very long time in the hope that all the migrants would go away (ie get to England). The fact that we British actually stood up and did something was keenly felt and noted by the native French population of Calais who were having their lives ruined while your government did nothing! (fencing, fencing fencing - have you seen the Eurotunnel terminal at Coquelles recently - that cost the British taxpayer £7 million)
     
  17. Ben Dover

    Ben Dover Active Member

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    Why don't you want those refugees?
    Do you regard them as savages or something?
    What makes a Romanian migrant better than a Syrian refugee? If it wasn't for Britain supporting refugees in wartime Europe so close to the failed Reich of Nazi occupied Europe, countless lives may have been lost and people's personal freedoms oppressed.
     
  18. Skipper

    Skipper Kommodore

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    Are you evacuating my points by asking a rhetorical question? you'd be a good politician. :cool: I respect refugees and I feel sorry for them , but they are just too many and most of them are NOT war refugees but economcal ones.
     
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  19. Skipper

    Skipper Kommodore

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    "My" government ???? Just as much as yours, but thank you for making my day. Calais was indeed cleaned and the so called refugees are now scattered and out of control but the tourists don't see them anymore . .They are in fact building illegal camps elsewhere The latest one is at Saint Denis, but that's not really in the news . Lack of political will ? I fully agree. They want to go to the UK, ? So be it. I'm not blaming the Britsh, I'm blaming the illegals.
     
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  20. Sloniksp

    Sloniksp Ставка

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    I believe that "Independence" has very much to do with Brexit and the EU according to many Britains and Europeans in general (according to my reading material).

    The EU was a creation of the United States (CIA). In turn members ultimately answer to the US. Some seem to have a problem with this... Cracks have formed. I for one don't see Greece staying for much longer. Interesting to see what will happen within the next decade.
     
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