The French Invasion of England

I found this idea on a wargaming page and would welcome your views.

The basic idea is when Hitler marched his troops into the Rhineland the French gave him an ultimatum, the troops had one week to leave or France would declare war. Hitler thought the French were bluffing, after a week the French invaded. In under six months Germany surrendered after Hitler was removed in a Whermact coup. A pro French government was installed and French troops were installed in major towns and cities. Britain made some diplomatic noises but France ignored them. Protests from Austria resulted in a rapid response from France. With the help of Belgium and Dutch Corps de Libre Austria was defeated in weeks. Again a pro French Government was installed, and once more Britain made efforts to get the French to withdraw,once again France ignored them. America regarded this as an european problem and stayed out of it, Russia who had seen a re-armed Germany as a threat, backed France and started making noises about the threat of Franco in Spain whose opposition they were aiding. France also regarded Franco as a threat and gave military aid to his opponents. At this time GM, Ford, DuPont, and Standard Oil of America were working with Franco and Italy's Mussolini was supplying Franco with weapons, there were even a few German units fighting for him, refugees from the French invasion.
After a border 'incident' the French invaded Spain. Britain delivered an ultimatum to Paris, three days later Britain was at war with France.
France with massive military superiority and the backing of a large percentage of the Spanish population gain victory and a pro french government was installed in Madrid.
The Anglo French war was being fought at sea where a large number of British and French ships were sunk in major battles. However backed by ships from the German fleet the French battered the Royal Navy.
The first air attacks on British airfields in June 1940 was a surprise, the Battle of Britain was on. However, with the industrial might of an occupied Europe behind her, the RAF could not survive the onslaught of the hundreds of French planes, some of which were of German design.
It was the evening of Monday, September 16th, when the French invasion fleet left Calais bound for Dover.
A French invasion of Britain circa 1940, outlandish speculation or a historical probability? The author of the site claims a white paper was published in the 1930's outlining a British defence against a French Invasion and what should be done to prevent this from happening. He also claims that even the airfields, from where the Spitfires and Hurricanes of the RAF beat back the German Luftwaffe, were originally built as a defence against a possible French attack. Now I'm sure somebody on this site could confirm or deny this fact but it just struck me as an interesting Alternative history.

 

So can nobody confirm or shoot down the white paper claim?

 

In 1940 the combined continental European fleets are still no match for the RN. The Germans have what 1 wwI battleship and the twins, the Italians don't have any modern battleships and only a couple rebuilt from WWI, the only modern battleships the battleships the French have are Dunkirque and her sister although they have 5 older ones none of whom are a match for a QE. The RN also has carriers which the others don't.

 

You probably mean the Richelieu.

 

Well Richelieu is sort of available in 1940. According to:
Battleship Richelieu | World War II Database
She was commissioned on 15 July 1940 but was according to some sources incomplete at that time. Furthermore when she reached New York for repairs onlly 3 of her guns were operational due explosions related to problems with her shells and propellant. In 1940 about all she's good for is to act as a shell magnet.

 

Incomplete maybe but nontheless battle worthy and fought the Battle of Dakar after Mers El kebir in 1940 . If I remember correctly there was also the Jean Bart or was that after 1945. ?

 

Here is a run down of the French Navy in 1939
French, Polish, German, (US) Navies 1 September 1939

 

Well it depends on what you mean by battle worthy. Shortly after she opened fire for the first time one barrel blew up and dissabled two more. Then another blew up and shells became lodged in two more. She wasn't really operational until after her overhaul in New York. As for Jean Bart she was still under construction at the time of Torch.

I like the Richeleu class but they weren't going to accomplish much in 1940 let them get the bugs out and they would indeed be ships to recon with.

 

I have a French magazine that was published in november 1940 that has several pictures of it . It also mentions that the AA fire from the Richelieu stopped two aircraft attacks (at 7am and 9 am) that was launched on the Harbor of Dakar. Then it was caught under British fire with 380mm shells and started a canon duel but was protected by a smoke screen launched by the Hardi. This is said to happened, acording to L'illustration N°5095 from 1940, on September 24th. I am aware that this is a Vichy time propaganda publication , so far from being pro-British , but it has some accurate pictures and facts including a British aircrew that was saved that day by the Hardi after being shot down during this battle. Anyway I don't want to go off topic and just wanted to mention the existence of this ship in the French fleet in 1940

 

For historical uk invasion scares read Flemmings Operatio Sealion Invasion 1940. His authorative reviews of invasion scares pre ww2 quite deffinitive and yes it is that man Flemming.

 

This goes beyond what if, and into the realm of pure fantasy. In this scenario, none of the leaders and generals of France who actually existed, would exist.

 

Well I admit it is wandering into Turtledove territory, in fact it was probably just an excuse to use French units against British ones in a Wargame. But it did strike me as an interesting what if, what if the French had stood up to Hitler from the start. Of course I doubt they would have got much past a bridgehead.

 

Yes, but why would they turn against the British if they defeated Germany? Besides the Spanish seems unrealistic too, ther eis no way Franco would ally with the Former front Popular Government.

 

Not particularly credible. You must remember that politically, agressive war from the democratic powers at the time (such as invading the Rhineland) was impossible. Although we can see in hind sight that it would have worked militarily, and IIRC there are even records showing that such an ultimatum would have caused Hitler to withdraw the troops from the Rhineland, rather than risk war with the western powers at that early date. The reason no ultimatum was issued, is the memory of the millions of dead from WWI.

Secondly, as a democratic country, France would not, could not, embark on a conquest to dominate Europe. The scenario is about as credible as a 1940 USA invading Canada, and Mexico.

 

The first requirement for this to be plausable would be a French leader resembling Hitler/Franco/Mussolini. Someone who could mobilize and motovate the French Nation. He would still have vast hurtles to overcome, such as limited funds to use after the money spent on the Maginot line which would do him little good in a war with Britain. Further any war with Britain would place France's overseas empire at grave risk to England's Commonwealth and Empire.

The next problem is that with France occuping Germany, Austria and Spain this leave little troops left over to invade Britain. Nor would any air raids be a surprise to the RAF as the Chain Home radar line would work as well against French air raids as they did against German ones. Factor in the mixed bag of aircraft types available to France in 1940, a few good ones and alot of crappy ones, it is hard to see them comming close to getting air superiority over the channel let alone the English coast.

Also England will have suffered few losses in either troops or aircraft prior to any invasion so a French attack would be hotly recieved indeed.

 

Closest I can get to it is this - Maybe Lavel or Tardieu in the early 1930's occupy Waloonia in order to create a Greater France.
This should give either enough support to be re-elected.
France could then in conjunction with Mussolini occupy French Switzerland.
France could then support Italy in Ethiopia and offer support to Franco.
By the late 1930's Britain would likely have still re-armed because of such threats.
A re-armed France in 1940 could with the aid of Italy attack Britain and its colonies in North Africa.
France have to develop a very large airforce to get its ships across the channel however with the protection they need.

 

The democracies of Europe were too war-weary. They had sacrificed millions of youths to establish peace. There is no way France of 1930's was going to succumb to the lure of Fascism and militarism.

 

But then its not the masses that alway matter. They do not weald the power...and there were enough in France in thirtees who would not say no to a facisct militarist state..even if only to control their own Communists...that of course does not mean war with Britian.
Britian of course had her own of both sorts...Its not the masses..but the opportunity of the few that can make the difference.

 

Democratic traditions, a stable middle class, and economical outlook that looks halfway decent helps combat the radical ideas of the extremists. Germany had none of that.

 

The German middle class was a stable as any in Europe from what I've read (possibly excepting GB). There were options available that could hve produced a decent economic outlook. As for Democratic traditions the "all thing" ranks right up there with the democratic governements of Athens and the Roman Republic. I beleive that expecially on a local level more recent such traditions existed did they not?