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The main myth of the Continuation War

Discussion in 'Winter and Continuation Wars' started by Artema, Mar 13, 2010.

  1. knightdepaix

    knightdepaix Member

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    Your observation was based on both Germany and the SU saw Finland as their own sphere of influence, Finland animosity to the SU in summer 1941 and to Germany in later 1944 were examples. H wanted M to concentrate on the Mediterranean, Italian sphere of influence than participation in the OB. However, in deploying the weak CSIR under the AGS, Italy showed a sign of co-belligerence yet not sacrificing elite forces. Using aircraft as example according to Wikipedia Macchi Saetta article, 51 Macchi Saetta was available with CSIR -- its dominance over Soviet plane lasted a year to Summer 1942.

    My what-if theory would be counting on the surprise yet planned ahead co-belligerent involvement under Germany on the Eastern Front. The surprise in Finland would last about until Summer 1942

    Doing some math,
    7 division = 150,000 human for the Red Army => about 25,000 human strength each division.
    The CSIR held about 59,000 human for 3 division and attachment => about 19000 human strength each division.
    5 division committed to fighting in the Karelian Isthumus = 100,000 Finns => about 20,000 human strength each division.
    some 2 divisions of Finnish reserve is approximate to 2.5 divisions + 13 divisions => 15.5 division
    for a ratio of 20,000 per division, strength for 230,000 Finns means = 11.5 divisions
    Within 11.5 divisions, 5 division strength already committed to the Isthumus = 6.5 division strength for K. Isthumus and north of Ladoga, or elsewhere.
    The Finns had a total of 13 divisions ready to fight; 11.5 division strength or 230,000 human strength was mentioned committed to K. Isthumus and north of Ladoga. Extra 1.5 division strength or 30000 human strength can be committed elsewhere, not K.Isthumus or north of Lagoda as the fight in K. Isthumus was undergoing.
    Soviet 14th Red army = 100000 Reds versus 6.5 possible + 1.5 available strength = 160000 Finns at maximum. 2 reserve Finnish division = 40,000 human total. However 6.5 division Finns covered both side of Ladoga. As the Finns only committed to one side of Ladoga each time, the reserve strength shall be available at any time of operation for Karelian Isthumus. So I shall use that 40,000 number as subtrahend. It gives 120,000 ready plus 40,000 reserve strength Finns against 100000 reds in area not mentioned -- from east of Ladoga to the arctic coast, if operation would begin simultaneously as the combat in K. Isthumus. A 1.2 advantage is not enough.

    27,500 in 2 German mountain division = 13750 human per division. However a German infantry number in 14712 human strength crossed Sweden, this latter number gives rise to the average 14236 between 14712 to 13750 human. As noted in a previous thread on this site, Italian enthusiasts volunteers numbered in thousands, which I approximate it to 4000 human strength. They came from southern Europe so using the 25,000 Reds per division as basis, only 14236 out of 25,000 South European strength could be hoped to fight in harsh conditions, indicating a 56.942% of strong South European bodies fighting German style mountain warfare. So if the Italian volunteers were trained, about 4000 humans times 56.942% equals about 2000 humans can be added.

    Therefore, if adding CSIR (59,000) and Italian volunteers (another 2000+) into calculation, about 61000+ Italian human can be added against the Soviet 14th army . So the sum of 120,000 Finns + 27,500 Germans + 61,000+ Italian = 208,500+ human plus light armor against 100,000 reds with sorts of armor from east of Ladoga to the arctic coast. A 2.085 advantage -- more than 2 to 1 -- advantage in numbers could be achieved.

    Therefore, including Italian could launch Continuation War operation on both side of Ladoga at the same time, if surprise of Red Army of the Operation Barbarossa was also felt in Finland. The attack onto east of Ladoga was launched on 3 September 1941 and fighting ended on 12 December. The Finnish offensive began on 10 July in the Karelian Isthumus. Extra 2 months of combat in warmer weather could have been added. Karhumäki was captured on 6 December. From going back in time to early October, could another 2 months in warmer weather meant successful attack from Karhumäki in early October to Kantalahti, taking or bypassing Belomorsk where Red army tank reserve was placed ?

    If possible, Italian troops in some form in Army of Karelia could link up with Dietl's mountain Jagers at Kantalahti -- Dietl's mission would have been accomplished. Hans Feige could be commanding the Italians as a German commander. In other words, Dietl and Siilasvuo would strike against Kantalahti, hold it against Red Army attack and cut the railway there. Feige with German and Itallian troops would fight with Finnish troops east of Ladoga to attack northwards along the railway, taking Karhumäki, Poventsa, maybe Belomorsk and Kemi, then arrived at Kantalahti.

    If Mussolini's leadership and Italian volunteers were so eager to help on the Eastern Front, Finland would be a place to shrine.

    Note that this calculation includes not just infantry.
     
  2. USS Washington

    USS Washington Active Member

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    Knightdepaix, Do not take any of this personally as no offense is intended, but you seem to jump around on multiple threads discussing the same what-if scenario(s) regarding Finnish/German/Italian cooperation on the eastern front, particularly in the northern northern sector such as Karelia, this thread here was about the supposed "myth" of the Continuation war. Why not focus you're what-if discussion in a single thread?
     
  3. knightdepaix

    knightdepaix Member

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    Isn't the details of German participation in the Continuation War a myth in itself ? As one other site-mate had noted, not enough lights has attended the combat in Finland. Also because much less combatants but mostly the major in the northern sector of ww2, Finland, Germany, Japan the SU, GB and US show us an example of how a relatively small nation -- Finland -- survived and took advantage during the dogfights of the major power. Usually Finland was seen as a reluctant combatant against the SU and hostility towards Germany but this itself is a myth. Finland has its own ideas towards foreign powers. The what-if scenarios you seem to label me to link to removing this myth. On the surface, these scenarios shall have their own thread; however, doing so will remove the connection to the myths around Finland's participation in CW, which this thread intends to discuss. So may I know why you are intended to remove my participation in this thread while I explain you that the what-if scenarios link to myths.
     
  4. Tamino

    Tamino Doc - The Deplorable

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    [SIZE=10.5pt]I have tried to find out what really happened at the north: in Finland and related countries. I always end-up in a dead-end of contradictions. Deeper you dig, less you understand because history of Karelia, at least the west-side-story, is a conglomerate of lies, half-truths and outright lies. I will give you an example:[/SIZE]

    [SIZE=10.5pt]Wiki: "The possible fear of secession, as well as the Russian ethnic minority in Karelia may have resulted in its "demotion." In 1991 the Republic of Karelia was created out of the ASSR." (taken from here: Karelia) [/SIZE]

    [SIZE=10.5pt]Now, let us take pencil and abacus:[/SIZE]

    [SIZE=10.5pt]Population of Karelia in 1926: 269336 (100%)[/SIZE]
    [SIZE=10.5pt]Russians 153967 (57.2%)[/SIZE]
    [SIZE=10.5pt]Karelians: 100781 (37.4%)[/SIZE]
    [SIZE=10.5pt]Finns: 2544 (0.9%)[/SIZE]

    That is obviously an outright lie because Russian population of Karelia was majority already in 1926. Furthermore, 2010 consensus indicates that 82.2% of Karelia are Russians. Who is minority???

    So let me ask a straightforward question: what were Finns fighting for? Perhaps to establish domination for just 0.9% over the other ethnical groups?

    So many people had to die just to establish a Greater Finland and to expulse the Russians from their own homes?

    That is quite miserable objective. Shameful.

    As the matter of fact, the opening post was extremely merciful. It wasn't about a myth – it is about an outright lie.
     
  5. USS Washington

    USS Washington Active Member

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    My intention was not to force you to remove yourself from this thread, I misread your posts and thought they were What if-like, my apologies.
     
  6. green slime

    green slime Member

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    Rather handy how you are not mentioning the events leading up to the East Karelian uprising. Maybe we should take that pencil and abacus and remove the substantial number of Red Army forces stationed there, with their families?

    If the Russians were in majority in 1922, and admired democratic principles, why then, did the Russians not accept the Finnish proposal for a referendum? Finland proposed a referendum in East Karelia, through which its residents could choose whether they wanted to join Finland or Soviet Russia. Due to opposition from Russia, Finland had to withdraw the initiative. In return of ceding Repola and Porajärvi back to Russia, Finland acquired Petsamo and a promise of cultural autonomy for East Karelia.

    Let's just say that the area has been hotly contested by various Swedish, Finnish, and Russian interests for the past 400 years, and with more or less violent tendencies to dominate the local people, the original dwellers not identifying themselves as Russian, but witht he Russians brought in as a method of domination and colonisation, as carried out by all the colonising powers in their time.

    Furthermore,linguistically Karelian is closely related to the Finnish dialects spoken in eastern Finland and some linguists classify Karelian as a dialect of Finnish. The difference is far less than between many supposedly closely related languages.

    Dialectical differences existed across all states of Europe, where they were eradicated during the creation of nationalist states, the standardisation of educational training placing a premiership on language as spoken at the capital. Finnish and Karelian had no such opportunity to coalesce; the Soviets needed the difference:

    Olonets Karelian
    Karjalas on čoma luondo. Korgiet koivut, vihandat kuuzet da pedäjät čomendetah meččiä. Joga kohtaine on täüzi muarjua da siendü. Kehtua vai kerätä! Järvet da jovetgi ollah kalakkahat: ongo haugii, lahnua, säüniä, matikkua, kuhua, siigua. Ota ongiruagu da juokse järvele!

    FInnish
    Karjalassa on kaunis luonto. Korkeat koivut, vihannat kuuset ja petäjät koristavat metsiä. Joka paikka on täynnä marjaa ja sientä. Kehtaa vain kerätä! Järvet ja joetkin ovat kalaisat: on haukia, lahnoja, säyneitä, madetta, kuhaa, siikaa. Ota onkivapa ja juokse järvelle!

    The difference really is miniscule. But the Soviets rejoiced in dividing and conquering. Karelians are a population under pressure. According to 2010 census there were now only 60,815 Karelians in Russia.
     
  7. Tamino

    Tamino Doc - The Deplorable

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    Please, don't use different yardsticks according to your preferences. Les than 1% of Karelian population were Finns and it was handed over to Finland, then. From the numbers alone it is possible to conclude that all these wars over Karelia were unjust. Not just a myth.
     
  8. green slime

    green slime Member

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    Karelians are ethnically FInnic... go figure.

    The Karelians, sometimes also Karels, East Karelians or Russian Karelians (Karelian: karjalaižet) are a Baltic-Finnic ethnic group living mostly in the Republic of Karelia

    Soviets denied the use of referendums to determine the local wishes, post the East Karelia uprising. Go figure.

    Who is applying different yardsticks?
     
  9. Tamino

    Tamino Doc - The Deplorable

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  10. green slime

    green slime Member

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    Yes, first line of text in your link:

    The Karelians, sometimes also Karels, East Karelians or Russian Karelians (Karelian: karjalaižet) are a Baltic-Finnic ethnic group living mostly in the Republic of Karelia ....

    Reading fail? Or a case of just not wanting to see?
     
  11. Tamino

    Tamino Doc - The Deplorable

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    I'm rolling my eyes right now. Hungarians belong to the Finno-Ugric ethnic group and that doesn't make them Finns. I belong to the same ethnic group but still I aint no Croat. Please, don't pretend you don't know the difference. Please. Among all other ethnicities in Karelia there were just less than one percent Finns and yet they wanted to take it all. Is that a good reason to justify the wars they fought?
     
  12. green slime

    green slime Member

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    LOL.... Please find where I make such a claim? You really do need to read what is written, and not what you want to read, or want to accuse others of claiming.

    Please don't pretend there is no difference in how close ethnic groups are; Are you seriously claiming the Karelians and the Finns are as distantly related as the Hungarians and FInns? Seriously?

    You were referring to wikipedia earlier:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_contemporary_ethnic_groups does not even list Karelians separately... and has the following Uralic groups listed:

    Estonians Uralic → Finnic → Estonian Estonia 1 million
    Finns Uralic → Finnic → Finnish Finland 6.5 million
    Hungarians Uralic → Ugric → Hungarian Hungary 13.1 – 14.7 million

    In other words; Ugric Ethnicity (i.e. Hungarians) are more distantly connected, than of those within the Finnic Group.

    Given further, that the concept of "ethnic group" tends to be associated with shared cultural heritage, ancestry, history, homeland, language or dialect, with the term culture specifically including aspects such as religion, mythology and ritual, cuisine, dressing style, etc, then it is blatantly obvious, as in the language examples given, that "Karelians" are really as close to Finns as it is possible to be, without actually being Finns; this all due of course, to the rather arbitrary divide enforced over the last few hundred years, rather than a radical disconnect in culture, ancestry, or language.
     
  13. Tamino

    Tamino Doc - The Deplorable

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    I will rest my case now. That's all I have to say on this miserable subject.
     
  14. green slime

    green slime Member

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    You mean you'll cease from trying to support a weak counter-argument, because you can't?

    Which isn't exactly the same as "resting your case"; which means "you've done more than enough to prove your point, and need say no more."
     
  15. Tamino

    Tamino Doc - The Deplorable

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    You're still pretending, aren't you. Anyways, what I wanted to say is that the Finns wanted to cleanse the Russians and ended-up swallowing their own medicine.
     
  16. green slime

    green slime Member

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    I beg your pardon? I was unaware that the Finns dominated Russia at any time of their existence. Remind me of the last time Finns that were ruling Russia, preventing people from speaking the Russian language, set up a Russian government in exile, or even tried to oppress them as a minority by forcing Finnish laws upon the peoples of Russia, in Russia.

    There is only one person pretending here, and it isn't me.

    Why weren't the Karelian peoples allowed to choose their own destiny in 1922?

    Think of all the war that would've avoided.
     
  17. knightdepaix

    knightdepaix Member

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    I am more or less resting from discussion so here I am, staying away from discussion.
     
  18. knightdepaix

    knightdepaix Member

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    How well the Finnish industry was in reversed engineering or refitting captured, purchased, donated machines and machinery ? BT-42 was one example.

    As my contents is bordering alternative history, a short question is if the Finns could reversed engineer de Havilland Mosquito with locally sourced wooden resources. The devastation of the land and building for fortification shall provide on their own lots of wooden resources, not to mention timber industry was one of the Finnish best, was it ?

    In my imagination -- an alternative history indeed -- was the Finnish made Mosquito becoming a multi-purpose machine that could be maintained with locally sourced wood and parts from Finnish factories.
     

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