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The Western Allies took Berlin.

Discussion in 'What If - European Theater - Western Front & Atlan' started by FramerT, Apr 20, 2007.

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  1. FramerT

    FramerT Ace

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    Suppose the agreement was'nt made to let Russia take Berlin. What do you guys think the Allied strategy would've been?
    Patton or Montgomery to enter into inter-city fighting? Air power? Wait for the A-bomb?
     
  2. PzJgr

    PzJgr Drill Instructor

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    I think Patton would have made it first and he would have fought in the city.
     
  3. Carl W Schwamberger

    Carl W Schwamberger Ace

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    Pattons Army was much further south than the US 1st & 9th Armys, or the British 21st Army group. Turning his army northeast would have required a much longer march than any of the others, and left the US 7th & French 1st Armys facing the worst terrain to advance through & in any case not strong enough to clear southern Germany or Austria before the Red Amy advanced there. Why not let the British or the US 9th Army take Berlin? Patton was well placed to advance to Prague and capture all of the Cezch territorys.

    And why this frequent obssesion with Berlin. It had a few industrial sites, but mostly was governement or comercial office buildings. The eastern German states were agricultural not industrial. Bohemia & the western Cezch territorrys were far more industrialized and modern than eastern Germany. I'd argue that area a better prize for Patton than burnt out nazi office buildings.
     
  4. ScreamingEagleMG42

    ScreamingEagleMG42 Member

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    either way an ally takes it, its much tougher for them. Russia had the brute force and overwhelming manpower as well as the willingness to sacrifice as many human lives as necessary. A LOT. I honestly think the allied forces would have had a tougher time.
     
  5. Za Rodinu

    Za Rodinu Aquila non capit muscas

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    Ah, but you should have come into this forum some time before! Then you would have had the opportunity to observe at first hand obsession manifestations like the invasion of Iceland, Baku by way of Turkey, flying panzers into Africa in Me323, etc. etc. Things are pretty tame as they are now ;)
     
  6. JTF-2

    JTF-2 Member

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    Flying panzers...lol
     
  7. Sloniksp

    Sloniksp Ставка

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    An agreement to let Russian take Berlin??

    Funny I always thought Stalin just beat the allies to it.
     
  8. Za Rodinu

    Za Rodinu Aquila non capit muscas

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    There was not any agreement, formal or informal. Actually Eisenhower seemed more interested to attack way south of Berlin to perform junction with the Soviet forces in order to cut Germany in half, also with an eye south to the mythical Alpine Redoubt. At the same time Stalin had duped him into believing that Berlin was losing strategic importance, while keeping it clearly in his sights. Beevor touches on this on page 194 (Berlin - The Downfall)
     
  9. Sloniksp

    Sloniksp Ставка

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    Miguel I once again agree!!! :D
     
  10. redcoat

    redcoat Ace

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    There was no agreement about who took Berlin, but there was an agreement on the post-war division of Germany by the Allies.

    Even if the Western Allies had taken Berlin it wouldn't have changed anything

    Due to this, Eisenhower stopped his forces near the borders of the post-war Western Allies and the Soviet controlled sectors, He didn't see the sense in losing British and American lives in taking ground they would later have to give to the Soviet Union.
     
  11. Skipper

    Skipper Kommodore

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    Agreed Recoat. Stalin was faster and got Berlin first. Had Patton had a chance to get there before the Russians, he certainly would have. The allies however liberated some parts of Bohemia and East Germany , only to evacuate it after a few weeks and allow the Russians to take over, according to the Yalta Conference. I however think that with the allies taking Berlin and reaching the Oder, they may have thought twice before handing these territories to the Russians (the equivalent of the DDR and maybe more )
     
  12. Za Rodinu

    Za Rodinu Aquila non capit muscas

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    You're both right, in my rush I'd forgotten about the Yalta Agreement. Why would the Allies run the risk of enormous casualties for a piece of land that would be going to the Russian anyway? Besides, assuming they took the plunge, Stalin certainly would not like such an invasion of pre-agreed borders, how could he be sure the Alies would retreat later outside the previously agreed Soviet area?
     
  13. Carl W Schwamberger

    Carl W Schwamberger Ace

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    It ok. I've read those same proposals & discussions elsewhere. Perhaps initiated by the same people. One of my recent favorites is making the Sealion operation possible by using the Uboat fleet to transport & supply the invasion force.

    Given the paltry economic value of eastern Germany Stalin got the short end of the deal. Indeed my professor of 20th Century European history. went into some detail about how the partition was not Stalins idea, and counter to Stalins original proposal for a joint occupation of the entire territory with occupation units mixed. The French pushed the hardest for seperate sectors & Stalin ultimately supported their position. Churchill agreed to that plan, and made sure the Brits took ultimate responsibility for the industrial concentration of the Ruhr & in north eastern German. The French got the middle Rhine with its industrial strip, and the US (who didnt care) got the pretty scenery of the south east..
     
  14. FramerT

    FramerT Ace

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    My intent with this thrilling "what-if", was'nt a different outcome. Germany would have surrendered whether Russia or U.S. entered Berlin.
    Just wanted to see some opinions from some of the experts here,how or if the fight for Berlin would have been different.
    For instance, would the Western allies had the stomach for city,street to street fighting.
    Or would the old and young bother to take up arms,but surrender instead. Maybe Hitler would have taken that last flight out of Berlin,knowing it was "only" the Western allies knocking on his door.
    JMHO.
     
  15. redcoat

    redcoat Ace

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    The division of Germany between the Western Allies and the Soviet Union actually predates Yalta. It was agreed in February 1944, by a committee set up for the purpose, the discussion at Yalta merely concerned the creation of a French zone, which the Soviets didn't agree to, so Britain and the US created a French zone within their own sector.
     
  16. redcoat

    redcoat Ace

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    Why?
    At that point the western Allies were still hoping that the Soviets would honour their promises to give the Polish nation a chance to decide their own future.
    In the first months after the war the western Allies were committed to attempting to work with the Soviets in an attempt to make the new situation in Europe as stable as possible, not honouring the agreement on the division of Germany was totally unacceptable to that stance.
     
  17. skunk works

    skunk works Ace

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    Redcoat
    Your last 2 posts (#s 15-16) were the story I heard as well. I cannot quote anyone but old and dead soldiers for confirmation.
    The PC answer is History, but the real answer is much more congested and quarrelsome to print.
    The Western Allies had no intention to race to Berlin for what would've been a free-for-all of death and friendly fire, not to mention refugees and bad feelings (perhaps more) with the Russians.
    They couldn't, they didn't, they should have, they wouldn't, are all true. A corridor, a pocket, an excursion, a reconnissance in force.
    It is what it was, a stop at the Elbe, and not that it had to.

    an opinion
     
  18. Za Rodinu

    Za Rodinu Aquila non capit muscas

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    Thank you for your correction.
     
  19. fjrosetti

    fjrosetti Member

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    I completely agree.
     
  20. fjrosetti

    fjrosetti Member

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    Very true, I agree.
     
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