Todays Germany needs to reconcile?

Leave Duke and Robert E. Lee outta your rants please. The Rbt. E. Lee bit was brought to my attention by another set of eyes and ears I have here. Other stuff was brought to my attention by other birdies. OK, the grapes may not be sour-but they sure are still rotten.

V.B/ sometimes I cant really "get" you on some things. For instance-the Germans have succeeded in making amends for some of the past dirty deeds. To help keep this civil, do me a favor and don't lump all Germans into the same war criminals kettle. I admit, ive only spent one month in Germany. In that month, I met some 65 or so Kriegsmarine Vets, TWO Knights Cross Recipients, and a few other WWII German vets. I found that every-single-one-of these men that I met-that none of them were dressed in red tights with horns on their hoodies and nor were they carrying pitchforks. To date, i've met only one German vet that I could not stand-a Waffen SS vet to boot-but thats another story for another time.

There is a lot of folks here who are from Germany-are Germans, and not one of them as far as I can tell? seems to have elvated themselves onto a pedestal. A few or these members ever served in various aspects of the Bundeswehr. I think you have met a few of them as well as had exchanges with them. A couple of these guys happen to be friends of mine and or simply folks I care greatly about. In saying this, none of these Gents had anything to do with their Country's WWII past nor the negative things that a few of their COuntrymen were involved in.

Your attitude reminds me of the same attitude the Author of a book called: Hitlers Executioners-which is a book written one-sidedly by a Jewish Author (I cant think of his name off-hand) and was a book written about German Police Battalions and their personnel and actions in WWII. The author of this book give guestimates and far-off so-called proved info from nefarious sources-on the German Police Battalions activities against the Jewish people.

And no, not in any way, shape or form, am I denying that the Police Battalions the book is written about-that they too partook in mass murders of Jewish Prisoners. Some of this guys off-hand and vague-like remarks include: "Some Commander of a Police Battalion even gave a young Jewish boy a submachinegun and had him shoot his own Mother and other family members. That CDT was so impressed with his new Jweish "Boy Toy" that as a joke, he had the boy outfitted in a miniture Waffen SS uniform in which the Lad wore with pride as he squeezed the trigger of his weapon mowing down another dozen people".

Other guestimates this author makes are very generalized numbers of Jews murdered in certain Concentration Camps and their off-shoot camps. "A Sergeant in a Company of Police Battalio 113, took great pleasure of stripping Jewish Women totally naked and forcing them to spend the night sleeping in the snow". The next morning, those who were lucky to still be alive, were forced up onto their frozen feet by being whipped with a bullwhip that he has specially made which also had tiny metal balls ties to some of the strands which when used against naked flesh-would cause not only great pains but also would literally strip the skin from the areas where the balls lashed on."

I could go on but I shant. I think you know where im coming from?

Thanks Meher, and one of the Waffen SS vets he is talking about that I have known for years and actually met-was one of the Knights Cross Recipients I was able to spend time with while I was in Germany. The man wa a very good friend of mine and I saw was-because-sadly, he passed away some years ago. Herrn Remy Schrijnen, a Waffen SS vet-never not once-committed any war crimes-unless you take it that skipping two of his duty watches-because he went and bought a bottle of Vodka-from someone in a Russian village-and then took a weeks worth of Suger ration and mixed it with the Vodka-and then he partied hard to his Platoon Sergeants chagrin-a War Crime. For this crime, he had the choice to either be courtmartialled and drummed out of te Waffen SS-or to take punishment duty in a Penal Battalion. He took the punishment duty in a penal battalion. Who sez that Germans don't have a ense of humor?

About Andy, I should think that he knows a little bit more than you do on the modern German Military as well as todays Germans feelings and such about the past. So, in order to keep things going smoothly, i'd suggest really listening to what he has posted here.

Oh and Ange-i'd like that some day to be able to go visit some of your kinfolks and maybe i'd still also be given the chance to visit with a few members of the von Richthoffen Familie and you as my guest. I think you would have a great time as I did-in chatting with the Red Barons Grandson and Great-grandson-the G.Grandson was the one I met on a train going to Heidelberg ;-))

 

You never responded to me.

Question for you, have you lived in Russia or even the Soviet Union? The "Soviet Union" you describe is in reality the Russia of today, such tactics were allowed to grow almost instantly after the Soviet Union collapsed, they had largely gone unchecked until Putin came to power. Corruption, organized crime, etc did exist in the Soviet Union but it was no where near post fall levels.

What basis are you using to judge an entire era, people, etc? The Soviet Union was by no means perfect but it had its share of good come out of it, or would you rather have wanted it to be like North Korea where a select few have the privilege of importing Big Mac's from China while the general population is made oblivious to the world around them?

Carl: No problem at all, I think this is the book you're refering to.

Hitler's Willing Executioners - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

I'm surprised it got the kind of reception it did, if a book causes a stir among people does it really get a free pass? Strange how books like that get praise for their controversial material while authors like Sajer, Bidermann, Wacker, Koschorrek, and the like are condemned, sharply criticized, etc for their works.

 

oK you can stay, but I want the curryvurst recipe.

 

I must be simple minded then.
I love watching Trooping the Colour.
Always found the Cold War era May Day Parades in Red Square rather impressive too.

 

Hello W.W.,

allright - now that is certainly the worlds best historical Military Parade - Unfortunatley the Germans/Bundeswehr never followed on the tradition of the German Imperial Army or it's Parades.

Chinas National day parade is worthwhile being seen too. They can really march like those bloody Prussians

Oh and Carl,
The Red Baron couldn't have a grandson or greatgrand.... There are about a 150 v. Richthofens who track back to the Manfred v. Richthofen Family - so it is possible that you met one of his relatives - being the nephew line - like Hermann v. Richthofen

Regards
Kruska

 

This is a statement wich is maybe possible on a military fan-forum , but saying something like this in public in a ex occupied country will propably lead to getting a kick in the butt ...SS was officially declared a criminal oganisation and definately not for nothing !!
Any member thats been in Russia saying they didn't join in atrocities is a big fat lier !!!!
(however kind and friendly a person might appear after WW2 , the nature of the org demanded absolute loyalty ,reading diaries of ordinary soldiers shows there was no escaping the ethnic cleansing , for no one ! )

 

Hello Heinrich,

Yes and no. One very distant relative of mine was in the SS and served almost entirely on the Eastern Front.
He was a Hauptzahlmeister - Paymaster? - the Financial department.

And shooting of Partisans e.g. "cruel as it was" is it really a war crime?
I am not defending atrocities - but does it apply to everything? - and please don't push me into the Nazi corner now.

Regards
Kruska

 

Im not talking partisans alone , at least these had weapons..no .
i meant the systematic ethnic cleansing of any new taken city/village ,the massive terror implied on the native people by the public hangings .. even wehrmacht did it but for ss this was mandatory ..What is disgusting is that 99% of those who came back claiming never to have been involved in such actions ..those are absolute lies .
The pics and the diaries show this was everydays business for all involved in such groups ,even the sani's ..that was not done by special forces , it was standard procedure and considered entertainment watched by all ! Dutch included.

 

Hello Heinrich,

I really got no idea if the above applies. That the vast majority of those who participated in those atrocities later denied - would be for sure.

Actually without wanting to bust this tread, but to indicate onto the "denial" part, I also have never come across a Vietnam vet, who admitted to burning, looting, raping and killing of civilians. I think it lies in the nature of the individual human to forget/brush asside these kind of experiences.

Regards
Kruska

 

Have a peek here Andy ..
http://www.bloggen.be/jodenvervolging/archief.php?ID=375717
site is huge ..lots of actual action war pix of the 'heroes' in action ..leaves absolutely nothing to the imagination about the east front 'happenings'
Pity he writes in Dutch as he's a belgian webmaster ,but I suppose most texts will be readable after loading it with googles translation options .
I know NIOD (Dutch Center fo war documentatons) has several well kept diaries of dutch SS ers in their archives perfectly describing how the procedures were when a town fell and how it was made ready for new use ...absolutely horrifying !!
Everyone was a partisan there ..men , women , and children .

 

Thank you my friend, that is the book. I was just reading dfrom it earlier while waiting for a library computer to come open. The book is not much of a book-because of the authors very negative slant towards most or all Germans.

 

Hi Andy, the Nephew part is what I meant. I cant believe I made that great of a boo boo on that post. Oh and, as far as I remember, that family member looks alot like Stefan here.

 

Me too...I like a good parade...Being in them too....Battle of Britain day would never have been same unless we hungover lot were in best blue...band strikes up those magnificent men in their flying machines...We all squirm...No better tunes then?? And all tick tock behind perfectly turned out sea cadets and cubs....Whats wrong with a good parade....Love em.

 

Love Parade?

Regards
Kruska

 

I'm beginning to worry about Kruska....Mind you...the RAF took part in the Brighton gay pride parade last summer...I believe they had a float in the parade....I'm not joking and not being sarcastic. Its a fact. I like facts. I think though they had blue uniforms not pink ones. But I'll shut up in case I'm accused of summit else.

 

I'm not saying the S.S. isn't a criminal organization, all I said was not all members of the S.S. were criminals. The S.S. wasn't that big in comparison to the Wehrmacht so if something did indeed happen the odds of actually going unnoticed by world authorities isn't very high.

In regards to partisans, it really depends. As graphically described by Guy Sajer, if you come across the mutilated bodies of your comrades where limbs are missing, faces are unrecognizable, bodies are booby trapped, and fresh partisan urine marks the scene it would be pretty hard to treat them as human beings once you get your hands on them.

It's made even more complex when you consider how no laws existed to cover partisans who were captured during WW2. To my knowledge no nation, even the Soviet Union condoned partisan activity officially, although unofficially...

Some tactics used such as blending in with a caravan of refugees and shoot German soldiers when no one is looking had the unfortunate side effect of innocent civilians being incriminated in the panic.

 

I know it was a peculiar situation concerning the east Mehar.. but the russian campaign wasnt fought just to beat stalins military/army ..its Adi's lebensraum policy in practice ..wich has all to do with thorough etnic cleansing and the specific role of SS in there . One of the specific SS tasks there was cleansing , not just battle alone . Im definately not anti german , but concerning SS i strongly feel one cannot say some were good , or that they were forced ..doing so is considered well out of order outside of a military context as we do on the forum here .Afraid the few who really were OK are judged on the uniform , not the personality ! Looking for those amongst a strickly voluntary 100% convinced and handpicked NAZI org is like looking for japanese pilots who didnt like their victory on pearl harbour ...

 

For some, S.S. service was mandatory or the only option they had to joining the German army. Very few times would foreigners be let into the Wehrmacht, infact most of the time a special S.S. unit was created just for them. It doesn't mean those foreigners who came to Germany for service were fighting for the wrong reasons, war is of course a complex thing with many sides and faces.

I think we should differentiate a bit between Waffen S.S. and S.A., while both units did have atrocities committed by their members the ones by the S.A. were in greater number and under different conditions.

Edit: Overall I see where you're coming from Heinrich and what you're trying to say, rest assured, I'm not saying things were not that bad or anything of the sort.

 

Hello Mehar,

I think you got a slip in that one. The SA surely didn't commit war crimes - independent of their hunting down on Jews in German cities and other criminal acts.
The real bastards were the SD and the Einsatzgruppen der Sicherheitspolizei - they were small in numbers but it was their organization that had to power to order Wehrmacht and other Waffen SS units to do the "dirty works".
This is were the common answer originates from- "I was a soldier and ordered to do so-what could I have done?"

As for the common Waffen SS fellow being German or from some volunteer country - they had a very strong anti-communist stance, but they knew what the SS and the Nazis were about besides being anti communists. And they were IMO 99% racial and political hardliners.

Besides those who were drafted into the SS, especially from 1944 onward, these man indeed have reasons to forward in regards to having been forced into the SS - but many of them particpated in atrocities as well.

As for partisans - I meerly tried to point out that the shooting of partisans does not constitute a war crime as such. That Hitler attacked all the others and that these countries formed partisan units is something that I can accept - I would do the same if my country had surrendered or had been overrun by the enemy.

Due to the nature of war, I think it is unnecessary to discuss about the partisans having commited crimes - it was still the Germans who had attacked them first, killed civilians and burned down their homes.

The only excuse which I give a certain validity is "I was a soldier and ordered to do so-what could I have done?" However this excuse is used by all who were invoved in WWII.-and as such it certainly isn't the truth.

Regards
Kruska

 

Too many S.S. organizations, I sometimes forget about some of them.

I wasn't saying those forced into the S.S. had their hands clean of atrocities by any means, nor was I trying to justify them, simply pointing out that the S.S. had some cases of conscription as well.

The only following orders thing is controversial. When you were forced to do it, did you have a smile on your face? Did you feel happy? Remorse?, etc. That goes for all sides in all wars, not just Germany in World War 2. I guess it was more serious during those days then it was now since the mentality would usually be a hanging or court martial in comparison to now where most armies generally just throw you in jail, court marshal, etc. In other words, it's a case by case basis.

Germany did indeed have partisan groups when Allied forces had entered the country, they weren't all made up of Nazi's persay but there was a group or two that was. On the East especially there were cases of people trying to "cash in" on the retreating German forces by simply starting a group with friends from school, taking daddy's rifle, hide in trees and try to take potshots.