Top 5 Tank Destroyers

But of course you can disregard those because of its gun's kenetic energy....right?

 

No Jagdtiger...its not solely because of its gun/kinetic energy..rather that this SPG/TD is a good combination of Arm/Mobility and Firepower.

In the case of the Su152...absolutely...!! Its gun is the whole reason for it making the list! Though im probably stretching calling it a true TD as its more of an assault gun with AT capabilities.

Jag..the other forum was only about the gun...this is/was about the whole tank/destroyer.

Though again I granted your point that overall it has many issues and wasnt built in great numbers.

 

just realized I read your list completely backwards, so that makes some more sense

Why no M18? Weak armor?

 

Yeah sorry about that I'm vertically dyslexic...

M18 is definitely up there, it could sub for the jagdpanther easily..its speed is insane but its armor is just a bit too light for my tastes..its effectiveness in terms of military record though really doesn't bear my leaving it off..it most certainly was one of the top 5 most effective...

Mostly I just wanted to give a thumbs up to the Russkie machines. As i think they really perfected it.

I mean the M18 is clearly more effective than a Marder but I'd give the Marder the edge as I think it gets points for being such an efficient use of what was available.

 

It's a pretty good list, but where is the StuG III/IV? The assault gun was both the heavy direct fire support unit and the infantry's principle AT defense.

 

Are you talking about the Achilles or the Archer?

 

yup my bad I meant the Archer and typed Achilles...edited it thanks!

As for the Stug well it certainly could have made the list, much in the same way that the M18 really should be.its more personal preference than true merit..though its still debatable.

 

Aside:
History Channel's "Patton 360 - Operation Blitzkrieg" the 2nd half is of this episode, about Operation Cobra near Lorient & Mortain is on this thread. Good bit on General Von Klug, the Axis' "RPG," Teller anti-tank mine, USAAF anti-tank strategies etc, etc.

 

Concerning the issue of Hydraulic turret operation vs electric. Given a choice, I'd go electric. I'd survive longer.

Hydraulic fluid burns very well. Also, if it breaks down or is damaged you have a larger job to do fixing it. Repairing the broken/damaged area, bleeding the system, etc. Jury-rigging becomes less of an option than an electrical system.

BTW, Here's a very good book on US Tank Destroyers:


http://www.amazon.com/Tank-Killers-...=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1256062889&sr=8-1

 

Own it, love it. "The tank destroyer was the most successful failed idea of the US Army during the Second World War" summed up with precision what went wrong with the TD concept. The tank destroyer battalions were remarkably efficient in hunting tanks, but what invalidated the idea was the lack of versatility and cost-effectiveness of SP TDs.

 

is this effective as a vehicle or effective by how they are used?
if the 2nd one then i say.

5. Archer
able to escape quick enough because of its build, 17 pdr very effective.

4. jagdpanzer IV/70
awesome gun, very low profile.

3. SU 100
even bigger gun! if used properly it is able to score successfully.

2. Hornisse/Nashorn
armour a let down, compensated for very effective gun. the longest ever kill was in a Hornisse which was a pershing 1945 or a T-34 in russia 1943, cant remember.

1. Jagdpanther.
unbeatable armour on the front powerful gun, solid chassis.

 

5. Marder III
4. SU100
3. Hetzer
2. Archer
1. Jagdpanther

 

mines,mines,mines.may not destroy a tank,but would disable it and then allow the crew to be killed whilst trying to escape.

 

Can't understand why I missed this first time around.

Both the above are poor examples of the 'superiority' of the Tigers.
The TII was being driven backwards because the commander lost his nerve and tried to reverse out of a dangerous position. He was unaware there were Shermans behind him and the 2 tanks collided. There is an account in the 503 History where you can read the claim he panicked and tried to flee the action. This is not an Allied account trying to disparage him.

The second example is not even a ramming incident.
This Tiger came face to face with a couple of Shermans and they all fired at it. The drivers visor was pentrated and a small fire started in the Tiger. The crew all baled out and fled!
The Tiger was then driven around by its captors before being expended as a range target in the UK.

You can read the account of this action from Stuart Hill's book By Tank Into Normandy
By Tank into Normandy: Amazon.co.uk: Stuart Hills: Books

"We paused a few minutes, wiped the sweat from our faces and
checked the machine-gun belts. As we moved on through the paddock,
Geoff Storey had to avoid about twenty dead cattle. We moved to the far
hedgerow and were just able to see Rauray in the distance. A wooded
area jutted out to our left, and suddenly Arthur spotted a Panzer Mark
IV. 'Enemy hornet,' I heard through the intercom. Remembering my
training at Lulworth, I ordered: 'Eleven o'clock. Two thousand five
hundred yards. Gunner, traverse left, steady, on. Enemy tank. Armour
piercing (AP). Fire when ready.' The first shot bounced once before hit-
ting the Panzer. There was a plume of blue smoke from its exhaust as it
lurched into reverse and stalled. It started to move again and a second
shot hit it as it disappeared into the wood. The shots would not have
penetrated but they might have damaged a track. This was my first
tank-to-tank engagement and it had not been as conclusive as I might
have wished.
Meanwhile A Squadron had begun moving up from Fontenay, the
plan being that they would come through us and thrust towards Rauray.
John Semken was Squadron Leader and he had already heard from C
Squadron that there were tanks about, so his gun loader put an AP shell
up the spout, just in case. As they cleared Fontenay, they were suddenly
confronted by an enormous tank coming round the bend in front. It
was hard to khow who was more surprised, but John shrieked, 'Fire,
it's a Hun', and they loosed off about ten rounds into the smoke. As
this cleared away, it was observed that the crew were baling out as small
flames came from inside the tank. It was a Tiger of 12th SS Panzer, the
first Tiger to be captured in Normandy, and made an impressive sight at
close quarters as both its size and the thickness of its armour became
apparent. Although the range had been only sixty yards, not one Sher-
man shell had penetrated that armour. The fire in the Tiger, we discov-
ered, had instead been caused by a shot hitting the side of the driver's
observation visor and showering white-hot splinters into the tank. The
driver had screamed that he had been hit and the commander had oblig-
ingly ordered his crew out.
A Squadron squeezed past the Tiger and into a field on the right
where they deployed. During the next two hours they systematically
shot up every hedgerow as they advanced. Some of John Semken's tanks
were Sherman Fireflies, and they started knocking out one German
tank after another. Sergeant Dring claimed no less than four himself,
and a Panther was shot up by the whole squadron as it drove across
our front, its crew baling out as it was still moving. The German infantry
started to surrender, leaping out of the ground under the noses of the
tanks, while our own infantry came up to finish things off. It had been
a great day. Thirteen Panzer Mark IVs had been knocked out, along
with a Tiger and a Panther. The enemy tank force defending Rauray
had been eliminated and their infantry overrun. Aggressive tactics had
paid off, and at relatively small cost to ourselves. C Squadron had lost
two tanks, with Iwo dead and two wounded. I felt encouraged by the
way each squadrbn had performed and this was reflected in the gen-
eral morale of my troop, in spite of the casualties. We had won a tank
battle against significant opposition, and this gave our confidence an
important boost.
The next day, June 27, it was B Squadron's turn to take the lead.
They sent out two troops to investigate the situation in Rauray but ran
into several Panthers which must have been brought up during the
night. Three Shermans were destroyed, and Troop Leader Ray Scott
and the experienced Sergeants Biddell and Green were killed. By midday
Rauray had been cleared and in it were found about eight German tanks,
all damaged to some extent, and one Tiger, which seemed to be
in perfect working order. We tried to incorporate it into our ranks, but
unfortunately High Command wanted it to be taken back to England.
Later that afternoon B Squadron ran into more trouble around Rauray,
and by the end of the day only had seven tanks still serviceable out of
their usual sixteen. John Hanson-Lawson, Squadron Leader, was badly
burnt when his tank was hit, and Sergeant Crookes, his signal sergeant,
later died of his wounds. He had been with the Regiment since before the
war."

No one 'retreated or resorted to desperate measures' but rather a straight out attack with excellent results.

 

1.Jagdpanther
2.Marder 3
3.Jagdpanzer IV
4.Archer/StuG III
5.Hetzer/M-18

 

I vaguely recall Jagdpanzer IV/Pz. IV (L70) was plagued by some raw design problems. Don't know if a contributor can enlighten us on that issue. M36 definitely was a very dangerous opponent for German armor, not the least because the TD crewmen were a cadre of elite troops in tank tactics. StuG III/IV series is probably my favorite, though.

 

Considering this is a thread about tank destroyers, why are there posts about tigers anyway?

 

Hello Tomcat,

Well...because Tigers destroyed tanks

My favourit tank destroyer would be the Japanese weapon of Sake Sushi San. Burring a Grenade projectile in the ground with its tip upwards and upon a Tank passing wacking on the head with a hammer or stone.
AFAIK the commanding Japanese General said, a meere missing or shortage of weapons can not be a valid excuse for not fighting.

Okay, sorry for the slight slip

My favourit Tank destroyer swould be the Hornisse - great gun and available chassis, and the M18 hellcat.

Regards
Kruska

 

Just some basic stuff I posted before:

When the Jagdpanzer took on the 70-calibre gun the extra weight of the long gun made the vehicles nose-heavy to the extent that the front road wheels had to be ringed with steel instead of rubber to deal with the extra weight (poor track life). The gun weight also reduced the overall performance of the vehicle, especially across rough terrain.

Could be more that I am not currently remembering

 

My input to this thread is:

1. Jadgpanther
2. Marder (all models).
3. M10
4. Stug III
5. Flak 36 88MM AA Gun.

Or does this thread only want SPGs?

If so, then replace #5 with the Hornisse.