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Torch in Sardinia & Corsica, instead of N Africa

Discussion in 'What If - European Theater - Western Front & Atlan' started by mjölnir, Mar 14, 2016.

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  1. mjölnir

    mjölnir New Member

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    Gibraltar was bombed by the French when Winnie attacked Mers el Kebir, Dakar, etc, to no effect and Spain has a weaker air force and lacks the fuel even to practice. Britain kept Spain alive. If Franco wanted to join the axis (which could not provide fuel, grain, etc,), he would have done so, when Germany and Italy were strong and the USSR, US, Brazil, etc, were not in the war (July-Sept 1940), not after the axis has clearly lost the war (stalled in Yugoslavia, Stalingrad and Caucasus, lost Libya, trounced in el Alamein I and II, Midway, Guadalcanal, etc, and Germany has run out of grain, fuel, rubber, chromium, tin, etc, and when Britain, Canada, the US and USSR are spewing fuel, cannon, munitions, planes, tanks, ships in incredible quantities, while Germany, Italy, Romania and Japan cannot even replace their losses). Franco was a perfect chicken who is going to run to the allied side when he sees a large fleet with Ranger, BB, etc, and ask for the fuel, food, machinery, etc, which poor Spain desperately needs, rather than fight the allies with a few outdated planes and tanks and no food or fuel. The last thing he needs is for his small navy and air force to be destroyed in days, his ports to be shelled and his cities to be bombed.
     
  2. RichTO90

    RichTO90 Well-Known Member

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    The stupidity, ignorance, and use of television as a reference source continues.

    The actual invasion force consisted of 12 infantry regiments and brigades, the equivalent of three infantry divisions, and three armored regiments with 198 Light Tanks M2 and 54 Medium Tanks M4. Critically, the lack of LST meant the Medium Tanks, embarked on AP 49 Lakehurst, had to be disembarked at a port.

    NONE of the Allied air forces "P-38, Beaufighters, Mosquitoes, B-25" were based at Malta or Gibraltar given the limited infrastructure there. Well, about two dozen Beaufighters were stationed at Gibralter as were a few Wellingtons and Bostons there and at Malta. Meanwhile, US Twelfth Air Force XII Bomber Command's two heavy, one medium, and one light group and the four fighter groups of XII Fighter Command were all based out of England. Its XII Air Support Command's three fighter and one observation groups depended on the Sangamon's or Ranger, unavailable until November. And that was only for 33d Fighter Group, the rest had to be ferried in. ALL British and American aircraft of the Desert Air Force were based out of Egypt, mostly out of the Delta...and in any case were occupied with fighting the Axis air forces in Libya. The 13 fighter, 2 nightfighter, and 8 light bomber squadrons the British based in Gibraltar were it. At over 800 miles to the Sardinian coast they cannot provide any support for the invasion fleet (malta, at over 400 miles, is not much better).

    Jean Bart at Casablanca, was incomplete and only had four main guns operational. As a stationary target she was little threat. Massachusetts fifth salvo silenced her.

    However, the threat to the "300" ships off Sardinia would be the inadequate air cover, facing what the Allies estimated as possibly 1,500 aircraft, flying less than 300 miles from the Italian and Sicilian bases, and less than 500 miles from the Biscay bases.

    Add to that the utter stupidity of attacking Spain. The immediate result is 31 infantry, 5 mountain, and 2 cavalry divisions, many well-experienced in the Spanish Civil War, coming over to the Axis side. Along with another 200-odd fighters and 200-odd bombers, including He 111, Ju 88, SM 79, and SM 81.
     
  3. mjölnir

    mjölnir New Member

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    Rich,
    3 divs for Torch (8-16 Nov) is a bad joke. The documentary on just Morocco, which you deride, is much better than your nformation.
    By the way you ridicule my references, yet you provide absurd information without any references.

    Please check out operation Torch in Wiki, 33,000 men (over 2 divs) landed just in Morocco under Patton and they faced 60,000 French troops there. Its funny that for a land offensive Monty always needed over twice as many troops, tanks, guns, planes, etc, as the axis, yet for a vulnerable landing against coastal guns, planes, tanks and several warships, "inexperienced" Patton is sent by the "experts" with 1/2 the defending force (4 times weaker and more vulnerable than "experienced" Monty's operations).

    The French had 110,000 troops in Algeria and Morocco and 500 planes, half of which were De 520 and dozens of P-36, that is stronger than Majorca, Corsica & Sardinia put together. Especially since Vichy troops fought better than Italian troops w/o Germans (as Winnie found out in Egypt, Libya, Dakar, Syria, Madagascar, etc,). Only an iidiot like Winnie would send a weak landing force against a strong Vichy force gratuitously and expecting Vichy to surrender, after having been trounced in Dakar 2 years prior, with similar naive expectations and poor odds. All that, while Corsica, Majorca and Sardinia are surprisingly weak and invaluably located and Sardinia is enemy territory.
     
  4. mjölnir

    mjölnir New Member

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    ATL while the allies occupy Majorca at night the British amabassador presents Franco these proposals
    1) Receive 100,000 tons each petrol, grain, rubber and coal as payment for use of Majorca for 5 months without any counter attacks (which would result in destruction of the Spanish war and merchant fleets and air force in days, heavy shelling of 5 ports and bombing of 5 cities, blockade of Spain, occupation of all Canary and Balearic Islands and Spanish Republicans will be financed, armed, transported from the USSR, Mexico, etc, and provided air and naval support to reestablish the republic).
    The offer has a day expiration date, If it is rejected, Majorca will remain occupied throughout the war without payment.

    2) Receive 250,000 ton each of petrol, Diesel fuel, coal and grain, 10 locomotives, 5,000 boxcars, 5,000 each trucks and Jeep, 50 each P-39 and Hurricane, 30 each Havoc and Blenheim, 15 each DC-3 and Catalina, 100 AT and AA guns, 30,000 Garand, 1,000 .50 cal mg, 50 each Lee and Stuart tanks, a Liberty ship, 60 25 pounders, etc, after Spain grants the allied forces use of airfields, airports, ports and right of passage and supply lines for 4 months to liberate SW France. The offer has 3 days expiration date.

    3) Join the allies, declare war on the axis, have the blue division surrender to the USSR (it will be returned to Spain) and receive all the above plus training for 200 pilots in Canada, 500,000 tons each of petrol, Diesel fuel, coal and grain, 2 each destroyers, destroyer escorts, submarines, 10 PT boats, 10,000 each trucks, boxcars and Jeep, 10 locomotives, 200 each P-39, Hurricane, Lee tanks, Stuart tanks, 25 pounders, AT guns, AA guns, 105 mm SP guns, Brent vehicles, half tracks, Havoc and Blenheim, 100 each Short Stirling, DC-3 and Catalina, a U$ million for every U-boat or Italian sub or destroyer proven to be destroyed, 100,000 for every axis multi engine plane proven to be destroyed and 50,000 for every axis single engine fighter, Stuka or Tiger proven to be destroyed.
    The offer lapses in 2 weeks.
     
  5. lwd

    lwd Ace

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    When did Patton's force face much if any naval power? The USN naval component did engage French ships including a partially complete immobile battleship (that was very lucky it had no secondary ammo) as well as some lesser ships and coastal batteries but they were clearly overmatched. The presence of tanks and planes doesn't mean a force was strong. Then there was the expectation that they would capitulate soon after the invasion started. Perhaps not a walk in the park but not a particularly risky operation especially when one looks at the benefits gained.

    Oh and as for using Wiki as a source. I'm not as down on it as some but it's not the best of sources. it is often best used as a pointer to better sources. It's also considered to be a level or more above the history channel on most if not all matters. On the other hand over the last several years (more than a decade now) I've yet to see Rich proven wrong when he states numbers. There have been a few times when very nuanced analysis has suggested some of his interpretations were not the best (and he's acknowledge them the 2 or 3 times I've seen such over the same period). You really should realize that he is a professional in this area and is very well acquainted with the source material.
     
  6. Takao

    Takao Ace

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    What the Fudge....

    Did mjölnir just use a Hysterical Channel documentary as a source????
    [​IMG]
     
  7. mjölnir

    mjölnir New Member

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    As I stated, only an idiot would expect Vichy forces to capitulate without firing a shot after Dakar, Syria and Madagascar and strong warnings against invasion.

    If you dont think that 110,000 French troops, forts, hundreds of planes (250 DW.520 alone), the heavy guns of a BB, cruisers and coastal batteries, tanks, medium guns of destroyers in Morocco and Algeria are nothing to worry about, then you must agree that occupying extremely weak Majorca, Corsica and Sardinia is a breeze with 107,000 Allies, a huge fleet, etc,
    The documentary provides the names of the ships, forts, generals, etc, and only in Morocco (1/3 of the operation) only an idiot would doubt that they existed and fought. It's really funny how millions of morons still think than man never landed on the moon or the French fnever ought well in N Africa, yet they take for granted extremely dumb, biased and totally falsified books, like Churchill's Nobel prize winning crap.
     
  8. mjölnir

    mjölnir New Member

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    I changed the episode, for some reason the fist episode starts in Tunisia and the 2nd in Morocco. I've posted the 2nd
     
  9. RichTO90

    RichTO90 Well-Known Member

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    No, it's the Mythtry Channel.
     
  10. Takao

    Takao Ace

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    I think you mean Mythical Channel...

    But, there are two The Hysterical Channel and the Mythical Channel.

    I haven't watched the his posted video, but it was showing History.com, so I thought it was the Hysterical Channel. Perhaps, I was mistaken.
     
  11. Takao

    Takao Ace

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    Ok...this has gone well bast idiotic.

    mjölnir...Please, just stop with the total idiocy. A Hysterical Channel documentary and Wonkypedia are not sources that have any standing...Well, any where - Except maybe elementary school.


    Both are complete..Total...Utter...Garbage!

    During Operation Torch, there were only 126 Dewoitine 520s, and the majority of those were based in Algeria.

    Since good sources are anathema to you...Go here for a complete French OOB during Operation Torch:
    http://france1940.free.fr/vichy/ada_afn.html

    As to what Patton and his troops really faced...Read this:
    http://www.dtic.mil/dtic/tr/fulltext/u2/a151625.pdf
    You will see that the forts and there armaments are far from impressive, and that the French forces are widely scattered.

    Further, while not my posting, this is worth reading


    this is from an Axis History Forum thread post: http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic.php?p=871352#p871352


    Finally...Do your own research...Not the Hysterical Channel's, Mythical Channel's, or Wonkypedia's research.
     
  12. Takao

    Takao Ace

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    You don't get it do you...It is a Hysterical Channel/Mythical Channel Documentary!

    No be a good little boy and go over to the DTIC's website or CARL's website, and download as many .PDFs as you can find on the subject.
    http://www.dtic.mil/dtic/
    http://cgsc.cdmhost.com/

    Then, get back to us...

    We will be looking for you in several months/years time.
     
  13. mjölnir

    mjölnir New Member

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    Takao
    Your own source lists 4 French divs long established in Morocco against 2 of Patton landing vulnerably and in 3 areas (providing time for the French to counter attack), where is the discrepancy? Had the French tanks counter attacked at night in the N (instead of during the day, when a navy plane radioed their location to Savannah), they would have wreaked havoc unopposed.
    It only lists the naval, air and coastal forces facing Patton (1/3 of Torch).
    The French N Africa forces were stronger than those in Majorca-Corsica-Sardinia, except regarding bomber quality, which is irrelevant, since fighters will decide the outcome of the invasion and counter attacks and the allies have decisive advantage in fighters. The fact that the allies did not deploy dozens of twin engine fighters from Gibraltar to support Patton, unly shows lack of basic common sense. Casablanca is only 360 km from Gibraltar.

    The fact that the 77 P-40 landed on an airfield captured on the second day begs to include them as allied air force in Torch (along with planes landed before Nov 16, when Torch ended. These planes would certainly have been more useful and decisive in Sardinia-Corsica. Planes landing in French N Africa after torch would also have been much more useful deployed in Corsica and Sardinia, close to Italian industry, RR, etc,

    OTL 50,000 French troops and a large number of warships (scuttled) and sailors were wasted when Panzers captured Toulon. ATL these French forces can be boosted with air and naval support and landing allied troops in Toulon to retain a beachhead in France and to save the fleet and those men.
     
  14. RichTO90

    RichTO90 Well-Known Member

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    No, only an idiot would believe anything you post is derived from anything other than what you can pull out of your ass, from the Mythtry Channel, or from Wiki.

    There were 112 D.520 Armee de l'Air in French North Africa. There were also 46 Hawk 75 and 8 P.631. So 166 fighters. Then there were 52 DB7 and 67 LeO451 for a total of 119 bombers. And 57 various reconnaissance aircraft. And 48 transport and utility aircraft. All with low operational rates and with some (about 36 fighters, 32 bombers, and 30 others in depot storage). With about 4,600 personnel.

    The Moroccan ground defenses consisted of four nominal "divisions", which were actually geographic organizations. The Casablanca division had five infantry regiments, four mobile and one fixed field artillery battalion, and supporting units. The Fez division had three infantry regiments, five field and mountain artillery battalions, and supporting units. The Marrakesh division had two infantry regiments, three field and mountain artillery battalions, and supporting units. The Meknes division had two infantry regiments, four field artillery battalions, and supporting units. There were also 13 coast artillery batteries.

    The Algerian defenses consisted of three divisions. The Oran and Algiers divisions were similar to Casablanca, the Constantine division to Fez. There were 18 coast batteries there.

    The Tunis defenses consisted of a single division of three infantry regiments, three field artillery battalions, and supporting units.

    All of the weapons and equipment were obsolescent, while the division's were nearly immobile with little motor transport.

    In terms of tanks, there were eight tank squadrons in French North Africa.

    In Casablanca, the two squadrons of the 1er Régiment de Chasseurs dAfrique had 45 R.35s and H.35/39.
    In Oran, the 12e Groupe d'Escadrons Autonome Portés de Chasseurs dAfrique had 23 S.35 and the two squadrons of the 2e Régiment de Chasseurs dAfrique had 45 Char D1.
    In Algiers, two squadrons of the 5e Régiment de Chasseurs dAfrique had 45 Char D1.
    In Constantine, the two armored car squadrons of the 3e Régiment de Chasseurs dAfrique had some FT-18 and R-35 (number not known but not enough for a separate squadron - perhaps a dozen).
    In Tunis, the 7th Squadron of the 4e Régiment de Chasseurs dAfrique had Char D2 (probably 20).

    Yet again, Jean Bart was an incomplete and immobile battleship, with one main gun turret and four guns operational. She had zero effect on the battle and was silenced by the fifth salvo of Massachusetts. Ditto most of the coastal batteries, which were either silenced or surrendered quickly.
     
  15. RichTO90

    RichTO90 Well-Known Member

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    Get a map. Learn to read it. Marrakesh and Fez are 141 miles and Meknes is 115 miles from the landings at Casablanca.

    Patton's Western Task Force consisted of seven regimental combat teams. Fredendall's Center Task Force consisted of five regimental combat teams. Anderson's Eastern Task Force consisted of two British brigade groups and one American regimental combat team.
     
  16. RichTO90

    RichTO90 Well-Known Member

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    Sorry, my fault for getting so tired of your nonsense. That should have been the equivalent of four divisions, not three. I divided by four instead f three.

    Patton's Western Task Force consisted of:
    Force X: 47th Infantry (9th ID) and Armored Landing Team 1 (2d and 3d Battalions, 67th Armor, two companies of the 41st AIR, two AFA batteries), and supporting units.
    Force Y: 7th (3d ID), 15th (3d ID), and 30th Infantry (3d ID) and Armored Landing Team 2 (1st Battalion, 67th Armor, one company of the 41st AIR, one AFA battery), and supporting units.
    Force Z: 60th Infantry (9th ID), and Armored Landing Team 3 (1st Battalion, 66th Armor, one company of the 41st AIR, one AFA battery, and supporting units.
    One and two-thirds infantry division equivalent, plus one reinforced armored brigade equivalent.

    Fredendall's Center Task Force consisted of:
    Force Z (yeah, they used the designation twice): 1st ID (-26th Infantry) and TF RED (two armor battalions, one AIB, and one AFA of 1st AD) and supporting units.
    Combat Team 26: 26th Infantry (1st ID)
    TF GREEN: one armor battalion, one AIB, one armored field artillery battery
    One infantry division equivalent, plus one-third of an armored division equivalent.

    Anderson's Eastern Task Force consisted of:
    11th Brigade Group
    36th Brigade Group (floating reserve)
    Combat Team 168: 168th Infantry (34th ID)
    One infantry division equivalent.
     
  17. Takao

    Takao Ace

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    I take it from your cluelessness, that you did not read the CSI Battlebook 3-A Operation Torch then, or else you would have known what was in Patton's immediate area. Or do you think all 4 French divisions were centrally located and just waiting to pounce on Patton?

    Saying 4 French Divisions faces Patton's 2 divisions is about as asinine as saying that 56 German divisions(rough total of the German divisions in France) faced the, roughly, 10 Allied divisions at D-Day.


    The 1er Régiment de Chasseurs dAfrique (1er RCA) had a mix of 45 R.35s and H.35/39s, and maybe a few FT-17s thrown in. The action you reference, they had about 14-18. However, these tanks would not have wreaked havoc, they would have gotten their havoc wreaked...You see, the American troops had these new weapons, called a "bazooka", perhaps you have heard of them...Very nasty in night actions, when you can get goos and close to a tank...Any way, it was the infantry, the ones that were supposed to have their "havoc wreaked", were wreaking havoc with the French infantry and armored attacks. Although the US infantry troops were giving ground, they were taking a good toll on the French forces. The American armored relief force of 7 M-3 Stuarts did not arrive until 0600 in the morning. Even though the Stuarts did not have time to properly align their guns, they still managed to knock out 4 French tanks before the naval bombardment began.

    What you fail to understand is that there were many more Stuarts behind this first force, as well as a good bit of infantry, artillery, backed up by naval bombardment forces.

    So, yes, any French tanks that had managed to penetrate the American defensive line would have gotten their havoc wreaked.


    Gomer, you are have only been talking about Patton...
    The gist of your posts is Patton did this, and Patton did that..Patton is a God!


    Oh mjölnir....You are such a clown...Is this another fantasy based on your Hysterical & Mythical Channel knowledge.

    2 P-38 Fighter Groups, the 1st & 14th, were allocated to Operation Torch, with a third, the 78th, being held in reserve.

    It is also worth noting...And I am sorry to bust another of your fantasies


    http://www.historyofwar.org/articles/weapons_P-38_NorthAfrica.html

    So much for those massive quantities of P-38s that you would have in this fantasy...Reality can be a very harsh teacher.


    And being even closer to Axis airfields, while being much farther from supporting Allied airfields...Dum-Dum-Dum.


    Where oh where is this further massive load of Allied support going to come from? Further, the ex-Vichy French were not exactly trusted by any of the Allies. The French warships in Toulon are essentially useless to the Allies anyway - no spare parts, no ammunition, no nothing. Look at what happened to the battleship Richelieu...Out of action for over a year...A long yard overhaul and modernization. This is your "French Illustrious", all that American weapons, materials, weapons, labor, money, etc. wasted on a useless ship.

    Or have you forgotten all of that nonsense you were blathering on about?

    Waste. Waste. And even more waste.

    The only way you are going to retain this idiotic beachhead in France is by immediately following it with a massive invasion of Southern France. Now, where will you pull those ships, aircraft, tanks, troops, artillery, etc., out of?
    [​IMG]
    Do you see any in there? I doubt it.
     
  18. mjölnir

    mjölnir New Member

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    Patton had over 34,000 men, that is a hell of 1.75 divs and that is 1/3 of Torch, not the 1/2 you claim. Lucian Truscott alone had 9,000 men (over half a division) for small, weak Lyautay and that represented less than 10% fo Torch.You list no special forces, airborne units, etc,
    It was a truly formidable force and at a crucial time (when the 3 islands mentionsed were weak and did not expect an invasion and when the LW would need time to redeploy and weatherize planes from Stalingrad, etc, to reinforce the Med.

    It's too bad that Truscott did not have heavy naval artillery (like Patton did) to reduce the Kasbah, instead of infantry and weak 105 mm guns. Heavy naval guns would have caused rapid surrender and avoided exposing infantry and old DD Dallas to the Kasbah's guns, which placed shells just ahead of and behind the DD.
    It is also hard to understand that navy planes used 50 depth charges on artillery, etc, instead of bombs.
    It is also surprising that Truscott's force did not deploy AT guns to boost the 7 Stuarts, Bazooka, AT mines, etc to defend the beachhead and that allied planes did not prevent the 14 or so Renaults form approaching the Stuarts.
    It is ashocking that so many P-40 were damaged just landing in Lyautay and that those which did survive, did not fight for weeks, while Germany reinforced the Med.
     
  19. mjölnir

    mjölnir New Member

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    Takao,
    This is the last time I respond to your vulgar, asinine and offensive posts.
    Strangely, Monty allowed many WM divs to redeploy to Normandy over weeks, so that he could not take Caen (a few miles form the coast) for a shockingly long time, even after receiving a lot more divs.
    Lucas had made the same mistake in Anzio. He faced no opposition, but allowed a hell of an army to redeploy and block him. The number of WM divs in Italy was more important that those near Anzio the moment the landing started.
    So the number of divisions along the beach is much less meaningful than the total available to counter attack.
    Patton's 2 divs did not land on the first day either. Truscott had fewer than half his men on land at the end of the 2nd day.
    Most importantly the bulk of the French army was in Casablanca, smack in the middle of Patton's 2 divs, not at all far from the landing areas, as in France. Patton was lucky that the French surrendered, otherwise he may have been trounced by a larger, entrenched force or at least taken unacceptably high casualties fighting a neutral over useless territory.

    The 7 Stuarts did not destroy any Renaults during a long exchange (in day light and despite having long barrel 37 mm guns, not short 37 mm, like the Renault) and were saved only by a plane radioing Savannah and USN planes do not fly at night. At night the naval guns would have been useless without a spotter. The Stuart's shell extractors failed repeatedly during the skirmish also.
     
  20. RichTO90

    RichTO90 Well-Known Member

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    You don't even understand that "Truscott" was part of "Patton" and so had access to the exact same "heavy naval artillery" as Patton did. Or what Truscott commanded. Or what the "special forces, airborne units" available were. Or why SOC's carried depth charges.

    So much stupid, so much waste of time.
     
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