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U-Boat Flak vs. Aircraft

Discussion in 'The War at Sea' started by Che_Guevara, Nov 7, 2007.

  1. Simonr1978

    Simonr1978 New Member

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    New Commando comic out is it?

    Hey Bosworth-Marlin, there could be a good book and film in this one too, all you need is to make up a female German spy and you could shoehorn Catherine into this story as well! Maybe you could make it a special Sunderland packed full of experimental kit being chased by an elite Destroyer squadron, in fact if you start writing now you should have the book finished and be getting money from the screenplay by the weekend...[/sarcasm] :roll:

    Source please.
     
  2. Ome_Joop

    Ome_Joop New Member

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    Actually it were 8 Ju-88's... :wink: (almost the same story but without the B-17)

    http://www.n461.com/praa_sands.html

    EJ134 EJ134 Mk.3 n/a Served with 461 Sqn under RAF control. Lost 03/06/43, coded UT-N. The famous 'N' for 'Nuts' - Sunderland EJ134 was a MKIII built at Short Brothers, Rochester, Kent. The aircraft went into 461 Squadron, RAAF on 31st December 1942 at Hamworthy Junction, Dorset, then to Pembroke Dock, Wales, when the Sqn. moved there on 20th April 1943. EJ134 was beached at Praa Sands, South Cornwall on evening of June 2nd 1943 at 2248hrs after aerial combat with eight JU88's while under command of Flight Lieutenant Colin B. Walker (Aus) 404610 D.S.O. Aircraft Category 'E' on 3rd June 1943 - Flight Sergeant E.C.E. 'Ted' Miles 540284 (UK) killed. Crew; F/LT WALKER Aus.404610 F/SGT FULLER (UK) 576061 F/O DOWLING 400788 F/SGT MILLER 405083 F/O AMISS 411112 SGT LANE 414701 F/O SIMPSON 403778 SGT WATSON 26588 SGT MILES (UK) 540284 F/SGT GOODE 407499 SGT TURNER 26697.

    http://www.adf-serials.com/2a26.shtml

    sunderland vs 6 Ju-88's happened a couple of times (3 april 1940 for the first time iirc)
    Looking at that list i see that most of the time 6 Ju-88 have the uperhand vs 1 Sunderland (although it seems that 1 Ar-196 could do the trick as well :roll: )!
     
  3. Simonr1978

    Simonr1978 New Member

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    From your link:

    Bosworth's account has the Sunderland shooting down all six of its attackers (Whilst the entire combat is watched by B-17s overhead), I don't find this impossible to believe but it's more than a little unlikely and all things considered (Cough-HMS Patia-Cough) I'm not about to take this tale at face value without some independent corroboration.

    I'm aware that Sunderlands were occasionally lucky enough to come out on top in spite of being badly outnumbered, but I've not heard of one being that badly outnumbered and shooting down all of its attackers, not that my knowledge on this is anything more than sketchy but I am more than a little sceptical on this one.

    The whole bit about being watched by the overflying B-17s sounds like it may be an invention to make a better sounding story.
     
  4. Ome_Joop

    Ome_Joop New Member

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    like i said almost the same story...
    Without those extras :lol:
     
  5. Ossian phpbb3

    Ossian phpbb3 New Member

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    Could we please cast Catherine Zeta Jones as the Sunderland?
     
  6. Ricky

    Ricky New Member

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    *insert innapropriate joke*
     
  7. merlin phpbb3

    merlin phpbb3 New Member

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    BG's Fables

    And 'Sturm' as Darth Invader'! :lol:
    and we could fit this special Sunderland with a Chieftain turret recovered from a swamp in Vietnam?
     
  8. Commando

    Commando recruit

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    What is a "Chieftain"? Some kind of tank?
     
  9. Notmi

    Notmi New Member

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  10. Commando

    Commando recruit

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    Thanks.
     
  11. me262 phpbb3

    me262 phpbb3 New Member

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    yikes!!
    you do not know that?
    yikes!!!! :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek:
























    je, je ,je you need to spend more time with us!!!!!!
     
  12. Commando

    Commando recruit

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    How right you are! :cry:
     
  13. me262 phpbb3

    me262 phpbb3 New Member

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    hey cheer up, coz we are here to help you
     
  14. bosworth gannaway

    bosworth gannaway New Member

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    Re: BG's Fables.

    A man of your all too evident intelligence should be able to work that out for himself, I am sure.
     
  15. bosworth gannaway

    bosworth gannaway New Member

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    Unfortunately, the book from which I am quoting was a paperback and foolishly I decided long ago to neither buy or retain any books that were not hardbacked. This means that I am unable to recall any more details other than the book was titled "Ploesti" and was written by two authors.
    However, if it is the story of the Sunderland versus the pack of JU-88's that you require to be verified, then do not the answers submitted herewith by others not do that ? I do have, though, one correction. I quoted the American aircraft that observed the Sunderland duel to be a B-17. I now believe it to have been a B-24 since it was this type that the Ploesti raid units were issued with.
     
  16. Simonr1978

    Simonr1978 New Member

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    Not in the slightest, there is no corroborration or verification at all since no-one has posted another story which has a Sunderland being outnumbered 6:1 and shooting down all its persuers whilst being observed by over flying aircraft of any description. Except for the types of aircraft directly involved in the combat the stories recounted are significantly different in every other detail from the tale you posted.
     
  17. Commando

    Commando recruit

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    Thanks! :D
     
  18. merlin phpbb3

    merlin phpbb3 New Member

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    Chieftain

    If you really, really, really want to read unique history of the Chieftain from a veteran you should search for 'Chieftains in Vietnam' by 'Marlin' on this Forum, perhaps some one smarter than I can point you at the thread? Ossie? Simon?
     
  19. Simonr1978

    Simonr1978 New Member

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  20. bosworth gannaway

    bosworth gannaway New Member

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    Frankly, it matters little to me that you choose not to believe the story about the Sunderland versus the JU-88's. If I am unable to recall all of the information that is asked of me, then that is a pity but nonetheless entirely human. However, I can add some further details which you may rubbish if you so desire.

    The US aircraft that observed the combat between these disparate opponents had on board one of them an RAF officer ( it was he that was especially interested in the combat ). To the best of my recollection he was either a Squadron Leader or a Wing Commander, and I believe he was called George Barwell. I am not exactly sure what his function was with the Americans, other than he had previously served with them for some little while. He was also either the first or one of the very few RAF air gunners to be commissioned, and he achieved his rank due to his exceptional gunnery skills. I have a feeling that the Americans asked for him to join them in order to help improve the quality of their air gunnery, since it thought that the Ploesti missions would require first class air to air and air to ground gunnery (which was very true). When the Sunderland versus JU-88's combat was observed from a much higher altitude, Barwell requested the US captain of the B-24 in which he was flying to descend to a lower altitude, either to assist the Sunderland or at least better observe this seemingly unequal combat.
    The pilot of the B-24 refused to do this but did agree to circle in the vicinity and it was this that gave Barwell the opportunity to see the combat in some detail. Barwell states that the gunnery of the Sunderland's crew was the best that he had ever seen, and that their defence of their machine was greatly aided by the excessive enthusiasm of the Luftwaffe crews to bring the British aircraft down. Apparently, the JU-88 pilots frequently flew in front of one another, thereby causing their colleagues to break off attacks and in doing so expose their aircraft to the deadly shooting of the Sunderland's gunners. More than this I cannot presently recall, other than I believe one of the US squadrons that oberved the attack were known as the "Eightballs" and may have been commanded by officers whose names were Jacob "Dutch" Epps and Ted Timberlake. These names stick in one's mind.
     

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