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Ukraine

Discussion in 'The Stump' started by KodiakBeer, Feb 22, 2014.

  1. Takao

    Takao Ace

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    So you are saying that the Russians were planning this since before the turn of the century? Since Sochi was a failed bidder for the 2002 Winter Olympics...

    Or are you saying that the Russian were planning this a decade ago, when the bidding for the 2014 Olympics began?
     
  2. Skipper

    Skipper Kommodore

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    Copycats. Invading Crimea ? Has been done before .......

    1) The French in 1919 (This is to help the white Russians fight the Soviets)

    [​IMG]

    2) The Germans and the Romanians in 1941.


    [​IMG]

    3) The Anglo-French campaign of 1854-1856 (I never realized the incredible death toll )


    [​IMG]


    [​IMG]
     
  3. Dave55

    Dave55 Member

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  4. Skipper

    Skipper Kommodore

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    As long as I don't see them in the west
     
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  5. KodiakBeer

    KodiakBeer Member

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    I'm sure the Cossacks are as divided as anyone else.
     
  6. urqh

    urqh Tea drinking surrender monkey

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  7. TD-Tommy776

    TD-Tommy776 Man of Constant Sorrow

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    It was more of a question, really. Though I would think the former to be unlikely. Putin strikes me as someone who is intelligent, shrewd, and acts in a deliberate fashion. I wouldn't expect he decided to go into Crimea within the last week or two. Then again, who knows? Maybe it was a purely opportunistic act on his part.
     
  8. LRusso216

    LRusso216 Graybeard Staff Member

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    My wife is of the opinion that the Ukrainians should have begun their revolution during the Sochi games. Maybe Putin would not have been so willing to send his soldiers in. Just a thought.
     
  9. Karjala

    Karjala Don Quijote

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    No. They are a small minority - unlike what Putin wants us to believe.

    The soviets, not only the "ultra"(?) nationalists, were also happy to kill and deport the Poles from the occupied area from 1939 onwards.

    It was also not so long ago when Moscow-led soviets deliberately caused deaths of millions of Ukrainians.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holodomor
     
  10. Karjala

    Karjala Don Quijote

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    The only ones armed and determined now seem to be the Russians, nobody else.

    Putin's actions and backing of Serbia were one of the reasons why there was such of a chaos in Jugoslavia. Without the Russian support Milosevic would have thought twice before his atrocities.

    Obviously you don't know the Crimean history very well. If we ignore the ancient peoples long disappeared, such as the Cimmerians, the Scythians, the Goths and the Khazars, it is the Crimean Tatars who have been the "original" inhabitants of the Crimea since 1240's.

    It was not until 1774 when Crimea was conquered and 1783 when it was annexed to Russia. The Tatars were still the biggest nationality in their homeland until Stalin's purges in the 20's and 30's, when half of them were killed. During the WW2 all the remaining Tatars were deported, during which (again) half of them died. After the war more Russians were imported to Crimea for Russification - as well as to all other non-Russian areas of the USSR.

    After the collapse of the USSR many Tatars have returned to their homes - or at least tried to. Now the invading Russians are propably still the majority, although their supposed share of 58,32 % (from 2001) is most likely too big now. After that the share of the Russians (and the Ukrainians) have been diminishing (low fertility, emigration) and the share of the Tatars increasing (higher fertility, continuing return).

    Nothing threatens the Russian speakers in Crimea - except perhaps the militarism and imperialism of Putin/Russia. It's the Tatars in Crimea who are the victims - not the invading Russians.
     
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  11. Karjala

    Karjala Don Quijote

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    They have historically been the lap dogs/whips of the czars - and now of Putin. Am not aware of any divisions.

    During the soviet times there were the red cossacs and the white cossacs, but that was then.
     
  12. rkline56

    rkline56 USS Oklahoma City CG5

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    Scipio, most astute observation. And early on as well. Russ had to maintain the Sevastopol Naval Base, that was a given. http://english.pravda.ru/society/stories/26-03-2014/127177-russia_combat_dolphins-0/

    Kodiak, Great picture of the Cossack Planning Summit and the dialogue is hilarious.
     
  13. Skipper

    Skipper Kommodore

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    Saying the north of Europe pays more than the rest is a cliché . among those who give more than what they get :

    Italy's contributions exceeds the Uk one, and so does France, which is the second contributor behind Germany. The Scandinavian countries contribution is modest due to a smaller population (Norway is not part of EU) and besides Greece, those who cost the most are Ireland and Poland.... The UK is fourth behind the three earlier mentionned countries . Among those who get more than they pay are "rich" countries too , for example Belgium and Luxembourg .

    statistics here:

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_Union_statistics
     
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  14. Karjala

    Karjala Don Quijote

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    Yes - and no. In that link Italy and France paid more than the UK put received even more. Belgium and Luxembourg seem to be getting more that what they pay, but those countries host many EU offices and institutions and therefore the statistics don't give the correct picture about them.

    Your link was a also bit old from 2006. According to data (by EU Commission) from 2011 the countries, which pay more than get back, in net contribution order, are as follows:

    1. Germany
    2. France
    3. Italy
    4. The UK
    5. The Netherlands
    6. Belgium
    7. Sweden
    8. Denmark
    9. Austria
    10. Finland
    11. Luxembourg

    The countries, which receive more that what they pay, in net negative contribution order:

    (Ex-soviet bloc countries in bold)

    1. Poland
    2. Greece
    3. Hungary
    4. Spain
    5. Portugal
    6. Czech Republik
    7. Romania
    8. Lithuania
    9. Slovakia
    10. Latvia
    11. Bulgaria

    If we leave the ex-communist countries out then the majority of the net-payers are from the North and most of the net-receivers from the South.
     
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  15. rkline56

    rkline56 USS Oklahoma City CG5

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    Lavrov, Kerry, Obama and Putin all talking again. Lots of smoke, lots of back channel dealing. To get the G-8 back on? Sochi here we go again. This time they have time to fix toilets, doors but not that awful water, ick. All we need now is Frank Underwood on this sitrep.
     
  16. KodiakBeer

    KodiakBeer Member

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    That's what they wrote the Sultan. The painting is by Ilya Repin.
     
  17. KodiakBeer

    KodiakBeer Member

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    And during WWII most of the Ukrainian Cossacks sided with the Germans against the Russians/Soviets. Today, it's the same way - those in Ukraine back Ukraine and those in Russia, back Russia.
     
  18. rkline56

    rkline56 USS Oklahoma City CG5

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    My Dad had some buddies when he attended Akron U. They migrated from somewhere in Russia but settled in the Ukraine and made sure that people knew right away, "We are White Russian, OK? And that is why we leave that place." Great friends!
     
  19. Karjala

    Karjala Don Quijote

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    Correct. I was thinking inside Russia only. Appologies.
     
  20. TiredOldSoldier

    TiredOldSoldier Ace

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    We had a significant number of Cossack forces operating in Italy under the German colours, they were turned overt to Stalin and came to a bad end after the war.
     

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