Uniform FAQ

Guys (esp Stefan ) I started this debate (about uniform colour) in the Third Reich Forums, but, surprisingly everyone to date 02/12 has agreed with me that's no fun! Here is what I posted there and I'm anxious to see what you learned gentlemen think.

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Ok,

I'm no authority on Uniform colour but there has been an awful lot of conversation on this subject before the reenactment forum came to life and there certainly hasn't been short of argument since.

The very basic disagreement comes from trying to decide which 3 different types of "converted" unforms, ie the Swedish, the NVA , and tailor made uniforms are the "correct" type.

Swedish:



NVA:



Tailor made: (in this case "At the Front Militaria")



I'll come right out now and say that my unteroffizier's tunic is built from an NVA tunic similar to the above, and has been described as being completely the wrong colour by some and by others its quite popular.

I would like to share quite a leading website (called LANSER) that goes a brief but significant way to describing colours, materials and cuts of wartime uniforms. I consider it to be one of the more accurate uniform websites out there.

Click on the link and scroll down to "FIELD BLOUSES - NCOs & MEN"

http://members.shaw.ca/deutschesoldaten/

One section which I found particularily interesting was this decription of the colours of later war tunics:

Quote:

Prime example...is this a wartime tunic?






If you answered "No" then you are wrong. It is a Army Model 1942 (issued 1943) Combat Tunic for an Unteroffizier in a Pionier (Engineer) Unit! Currently worth $1450

And the shape of collars:

Quote:

If this is true, are the quality of the tunics we are constantly tussling over then, well, academic? ie. Towards the end of the war when so many manufacturers were making uniforms from so many different parts of occupied Europe using such varied materials, can we say that there was NO standard?



(from At The Front militaria "www.atthefront.com" showing different types of wartime tunic)

I know this isn't going to stop us debating merits of swede over NVA or whatever, in fact fashion is often one of the most envied and money-influenced topics today. Someone is always going to look at your suit you're wearing in the street and think...gee that's a cheap make!

I just can't help wondering whether we are nitpicking someone's feldblouse because we paid $500 for ours, when another person feels their's is perfectly acceptable for $100. Of course we can't say to a person, "$100? You cheapo", so instead we say...
"Hey that's Farby!" (Farb is a German word for "colour", used in this context it means wrong colour)

Is it a case of sour grapes perhaps?

What do you all think?...discuss.

[ 13. February 2004, 04:59 AM: Message edited by: BratwurstDimSum ]

 

Well I am currently changing my impression to make it very late war so I quite understand what you are saying about uniformity. My unit does not allow NVA tunics, full stop, the reason is actually that the fabric is too good quality (from what I have seen it is actually totally different from the original field grey), Swedish tunics are ok if properly converted and the tailor made are great. I pretty much agree with this, the Swedish material is very similar to that of originals.

I do not see what you are getting at in terms of a 'debate' though, I know some people think that Swedish uniforms are wrong, well if they are converted correctly they are fine, the same goes for the for the NVA stuff I assume though again, I don't like the material.

The other thing to remember is who would modify their uniforms, you would not likely find a mannenschaften with a green collar because it was an affecation of NCO's and Officers who wanted their standard issue (or even tailor made) tunics to reflect their position. I would prefer it if people who represent the bog standard Landser kept their tunics to what was theoretically the 'regulation' pattern, that is if they had an M43 tunic it would not have a green or more pointy collar.

The fabric colour issue, well frankly there are so many variations in colour people can basically use what they want, its a question of the quality of the fabric.

Again, I would like to point out that I went for a cheap option, my tunic cost £50, is made from coarse Swedish material (it is an M44 tunic) and has pleanty of field repairs etc. When you can get a decent uniform, even one that has been modified slightly (the 12th SS for example had their tunics tailored considerably shorter than usual, it was fashionable to have them cut off right below the pockets) for under £100 why not go for it, particularly if the alternative is to wear a poor conversion of a swedish or NVA tunic.

As for 'Farb' I heared that came from the phrase 'far be it from me', often used by 'farbys' and those who correct them. I guess both are good. Ok, so that wasn't much of a debate, more a ramble.

 

Bloody good points Stefan, esp about the £50 tunic.

The debate (my wording my not have been the best) is about why there is discrimination between repro tunics. Other than the cut (which can be altered) I thought the main gripe was the colour - ie. NVA "grey-brown", if that was the case, my arguement was there is NO standard colour.

As for fabric, as I mentioned somewhere else, supply got so short that fabric was gotten from everywhere across the Reich and uniformity in quality could not be guaranteed so saying that NVA is barred because of fabric, well...I'm not entiredly convinced

Perhaps my point would be better put across by asking: "Would this tunic be barred from your group and why?"



[ 02. December 2003, 01:07 PM: Message edited by: BratwurstDimSum ]

 

Is that uniform a repro or an original? If it was repro based around an NVA tunic (which it looks a little like) wouldn't be barred simply because of colour, it looks ok to me, the problem I would have with it is the extra seam either side of the buttons (never seen one of those on a proper uniform) and the top of the sleves which just look wrong. I don't like it, thats my opinion though.

The fabric quality issue, for the most part I would argue that the reason the NVA tunics should not be used is because some of them contain nylon and so on, materials that were not used in German uniforms because they didn't have them.

The colour issue, well yeah, I agree in principle as there was HUGE varioation from uniform to uniform, on the other hand since most people (whilst claiming to be combat soldiers) look like they have just been issued all their kit, and since kit was issued on a batch by batch basis most men of a unit would have roughly comparable coloured kit (in theory), the variation would be from private purchase items and replacement kit.

 

Good points Stefan, I guess you learn something new every day.

The above tunic is NVA. a studio pic from my supplier actually.

Banning a tunic for nylon content would be a bad reason (IMHO) but I concede that the seam thing is a reason (albiet harsh) to choose swedish over NVA

I chose NVA because in the end it was cheap and it is incredibily resistant to mud, rain and thorns, I crawled through all this, after which only a light brush got all the stains out.

At the time the outfits I was look at were being charged at £80 for trousers alone, something I could not justify given the amount of wear I was going to give them

[ 02. December 2003, 02:37 PM: Message edited by: BratwurstDimSum ]

 

It all depends what you are in the hobby for, I mean I am a 'living historian' and so get the most accurate stuff I can (on a students budget) no matter how much wear and tare it will get, if it breaks I will fix it. The main reason for all this is that I display to the public so basically I don't want to show them 'wrong' kit. It is the same reason I want to get rid of my smock and get one made from more accurate material. From what I gather you are in it more for the private battle aspect so really its fair enough, if you are not going to be displaying to the public regularly and so on.

 

Hey Stefan,

I've always admired the guys from "At the front" for their directness check this out:

I think this attitude actually make them MORE popular with reenactors

 

Yeah, I love those rants, they are fantastic. I would like to order stuff from them but I don't have the cash. Their camo is great and their uniforms, fantastic. I need to getsome of their kit one day.

 

Yeah, I love those rants, they are fantastic. I would like to order stuff from them but I don't have the cash. Their camo is great and their uniforms, fantastic. I need to getsome of their kit one day.

 

My uniform is from ATF and I love it along with my great coat I got from there too. I friend of mine in the hobby used to work there and I think I drove him nuts calling him to bring stuff for me to events. My best friend went to there actual store and came back with descriptions of rooms filled to the ceiling with jackboots( I think he believed he was in heaven). As for converted tunics I really don't like the swedes, correct me if I'm wrong but don't they have a seam in the center of back? It might have been the swedish greatcoats I can't remember for sure, too many uniforms to remember. I have yet to see a post war converted tunic that I am satisfied with. As for shades/colors my tunic and hosen match, but my greatcoat and feldmutze are different shades. Its good to see the differences.

 

I hate you PzGren, I just noticed that on my tunic and now I need to get a new one! Great, now I have to hunt around for one without a seam, I hope your satisfied! Actually, I may play with mine, put a hole in the back or something, claim battle injuries, I can hardly sell it!.

 

Stefan,

How the SS have changed in 60 years! Instead of worring about the advance of the Untermenshen, they are getting ulcers over seams!

I'll just stick to being a sloppy, undisciplined, Asian Wehrmacht Drafee Harr Harr

 

Sorry Stefan, didn't mean to upset you.

 

I was kidding guys . I was planning on finding one sometime soon anyhow, as soon as I have the cash. BDS, It does seem rather daft, then again, its rather like trying to impersonate Charlie Chaplain wearing DM's otherwise.

 

Stefan,

If you want a hole in your tunic, you could get one the way that Panzergrenadier did... shoot it with your rifle. It leaves a good sized bullet hole and some charred black marks.

Langemann

 

Not a bad idea, though I doubt it will take the whole seam out. That must make a mighty fine hole though.

 

Thanks for bringing that up dane. Stefan it was my third event and lets just say I know how to use a safety now.

 

errr...I didn't know reenactors used live fire weapons (ie metal things that fire metal that sticks inside you)

But this is the states we are talking about

 

without a doubt, one of the best threads i have ever read on this most contentious of ww2 subjects.

thanks in particular to BDS and to Stefan.

i feel much better knowing that there others out there who know the great disparity between what appears in an 'observer book for boys' on german uniforms and what really happened concerning uniform issue in germany.

Andreas.

 

Thanks Arminius, are you a re-enactor of some sort? I find that whilst there are lots of good books out there about uniforms, nothing beats original photos and actually looking at the real thing.

BDS, I dont think it was live but blank rounds still spray out hot gas and bits of brass (ooh, that rhymes). Actually I have found myself cutting a chunk of brass out of my shoulder after some jerk fired at me at close range, nice demonstration of why we should stick to safety distances