Utterly beyond belief the French SS volunteers..madness!

As ever, Degrelle's words dripping with self justification...

Nice solid page on Norwegian volunteers:
Norwegian volunteers in the wehrmacht and SS
(Good website as a whole - www.nuav.net)

Hard to qualify maybe, but in many ways an even more questionable thing to join than the Waffen were the Allgemeine foreign volunteers, and their eventual transformation into the Germanische (as referenced in the above article). They seem to have largely been quite rapidly drawn into combat units, as opposed to the Allgemeine's more usual 'civic'/political purpose.
I could entertain there being a variety of reasons for a young man in the 40s to fall for the Waffen's foreign recruitment campaigns, but anyone volunteering into an Allgemeine unit seems to me to have far clearer motivations, much more closely in alignment with the specific Nazi plan.

(Edit: - More interesting Norgie volunteer stuff on other pages there, including a more substantial account of their Allgemeine chaps:
http://www.nuav.net/articles.html
NUAV - History of the Norwegian Political SS. )

 

Adam, do you have any photos to go with the above interview of the Walloons or the French? If so, please post away!

So, I gather from your only comment you are not one of Degrelle's admirers. Good, neither am I, but a thread like this must, of necessity, contain words and images that come from the horses mouth. These volunteers will all be gone soon, and their side of the story is still the other side of the hill for most people. We read page after page of Allied veterans, so a little balance in coverage is important.

What, then, do we make of it all?

Degrelle makes no bones about his own units lack of involvement in anti-semitic atrocities. He is honest enough to admit that there were exceptions to this, for both his unit and the 5th SS Wiking Division.

Given the nature of the fighting, atrocities were bound to occur, particularly when fighting partisans. Degrelle's frustration at not being able to identify these 'charlies' in a crowd seems to echo the same frustrations of U.S. servicemen in Vietnam complaining about 9 year olds initiating ambushes, or women in civilian clothing dropping grenades and causing casualties when receiving medical attention. It seems that irregular warfare is always going to be a dirty business when the protagonists do not wear uniforms and clearly display whose side they are on. This type of war seems to invite atrocity. Our servicemen fighting terrorism have the same basic problem. How do you actually tell who you are fighting when the enemy and the people not in their service are attired in exactly the same way.

The solution, it seems, would be to outlaw irregular warfare altogether, making it a crime against humanity to appear on a field of conflict and not be part of a recognized armed service.

One thing that does shine through. The German Army threw away the military opportunity of the century when they classified many of the people who could have provided the mass that they needed as definitively sub-human. It was arrogance on an amazing level, and it demonstrates the bankrupt nature of not only the regime and it's 'racial theory', but the utter contempt that the German nation had for eastern peoples of any description, not just Communists. But, this arrogance fits in well with their concept of a QUICK campaign. If all went well, the Nazis could impose any type of regime they wanted. Once the 1941 campaign failed, it came back to bite, harder and harder, until the irregular atrocities overshadowed the fighting itself, and became the manner in which we now view the Great Patriotic War.

European Crusade? Maybe for some....but people go to war for all sorts of reasons. White Northern troops during the American Civil War began the conflict fighting for states rights of secession. Historians like Barbara Fielding seem to forget this, and see the war with hindsight only. But as Frederick Douglas said, "Let the white folks fight for what they want, and let we colored fight for what we want."

It seems logical to assume that, on the Ostfront at least, the same applied. Different people fought for differing motivations. But failure brings it's own problems, and once you begin to treat people like animals, they respond as such. Chivalry goes out the window, and you end up with one big MESS. And thats just what happened in Russia.....a big mess, with the German Army unable to put the pieces of the goodwill machine back together.

We should learn from this in our war against terrorism. Win lose or draw, we are still fighting human beings. This came through for American servicemen at the end of the Pacific War. As narrator Lawrence Olivier states in the BBC documentary "Pacific",
"The Americans, at the end of their great advance across the Pacific, realized that the animals, the faceless fanatics, ready to die for their Emporer, were human beings like themselves."

An American vet from Okinawa takes the stage, stating,....
"The civilians were greatly relieved when they realized that we weren't going to do all the things that they had been told that we were going to do to them. We had thought, 'Well! Life was cheap to them', but they showed kindness to their own wounded, helping them along, three or four at a time, even though they was hurt themselves....so they were people just like us..."

When this present conflict is all over, it's best that we remember the essential humanity of our enemies then as well. Never forget, as John Kennedy said at American University....

"We all inhabit the same planet, we all cherish our children's future, we all breathe the same air.....and we are all mortal."

 

Flandern/ Langemarck






Walonien







Nederland




Italia



much more here :http://www.passionmilitaria.com/t45107-les-divisions-de-la-waffen-ss

 

an overall view of all SS units from Europe

 

and back to the French ones
















la LVF

 

Volga, Thanks for the interview with Degrelle. That sounds the same as what I have read in my grandfather's journal. Very similar outlook and stance about the war.

 

SS volunteers weren't romantic knights who have fought for freedom of Europe; their character is much more than obscure. After the war there were many psychological studies that sought psychological profiles of Nazis. What kind of people they were? Were they mad?

Kelley and Gilbert claimed that all of the war criminals were legally sane. Nonetheless they interpreted the data on these men differently and eventually published separate books to argue for the validity of their disparate analyses. In his book, "The Psychology of Dictatorship", Gilbert concluded that there were three different personality types in the group that could all be classified under a psychopathic personality: schizoid, narcissistic and paranoid types, and thus their pathology led them to engage in their horrific actions. Gilbert was attuned to the socio-cultural context of the Nazi leadership. He claimed that the Nazis were raised in a culture that had a primary value of deference to authority to which all other reason and intelligence took a backseat. He concluded that democratic leaders should be trained as critical thinkers to prevent that same kind of blind obedience.

The author of the initial post is right: Madness!

 

In a table below, I have summarized strength of SS-waffen units from the present day EU countries. It is interesting to note high numbers for relatively small countries: Baltic States and Benelux.


On the other side, there were no SS-Waffen volunteers from Cyprus, Czech Republic, Greece, Ireland, Malta, Poland, Portugal, Slovakia, Slovenia and, of course, the UK. It appears that tendency to volunteer SS increases geographically in directions North and West. Greeks and Brits appear especially immune to the Nazi madness.


[TABLE="class: MsoNormalTable, width: 129"]
[TR]
[TD="width: 135"] Belgium
[/TD]
[TD="width: 80"]

40.000​

[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="width: 135"] Bulgaria
[/TD]
[TD="width: 80"]

600​

[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="width: 135"] Cyprus
[/TD]
[TD="width: 80"][/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="width: 135"] Czech
[/TD]
[TD="width: 80"][/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="width: 135"] Denmark
[/TD]
[TD="width: 80"]

10.000​

[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="width: 135"] Estonia
[/TD]
[TD="width: 80"]

25.000​

[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="width: 135"] Finland
[/TD]
[TD="width: 80"]

3.000​

[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="width: 135"] France
[/TD]
[TD="width: 80"]

20.000​

[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="width: 135"] Greece
[/TD]
[TD="width: 80"][/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="width: 135"] Hungary
[/TD]
[TD="width: 80"]

20.000​

[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="width: 135"] Ireland
[/TD]
[TD="width: 80"][/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="width: 135"] Italy
[/TD]
[TD="width: 80"]

15.000​

[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="width: 135"] Latvia
[/TD]
[TD="width: 80"]

80.000​

[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="width: 135"] Lithuania
[/TD]
[TD="width: 80"]

50.000​

[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="width: 135"] Luxemburg
[/TD]
[TD="width: 80"]

2.000​

[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="width: 135"] Malta
[/TD]
[TD="width: 80"][/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="width: 135"] Netherlands
[/TD]
[TD="width: 80"]

50.000​

[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="width: 135"] Poland
[/TD]
[TD="width: 80"][/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="width: 135"] Portugal
[/TD]
[TD="width: 80"][/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="width: 135"] Romania
[/TD]
[TD="width: 80"]

50.000​

[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="width: 135"] Slovakia
[/TD]
[TD="width: 80"][/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="width: 135"] Slovenia
[/TD]
[TD="width: 80"][/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="width: 135"] Spain
[/TD]
[TD="width: 80"]

10.000​

[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="width: 135"] Sweden
[/TD]
[TD="width: 80"]

300​

[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="width: 135"] UK
[/TD]
[TD="width: 80"][/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]

 

Well, the Brits had a fascist party of thier own back then, as did the Americans. They definitely had substantial influence too early in the war. So even though they may not have had SS members, they definitely had a black armband group.

 

The explanation might be that the Reich Protectorate of Bohemia and Moravia (Czech) and the Generalgouvernement (Poland) were considered part of the Greater German Reich and that recruits were listed accordingly. That seems more likely than that 20,000 Hungarians, 80,000 Latvians, etc. would join the SS and not one person from neighboring countries. There was even a Britische Freikorps recruited from British and Empire POWs, although it only numbered a few dozen.

 

Napoleon came to my mind... history repeats itself because nobody was listening the first time.

 

Indeed, Mosley and his comrades made some show in UK, but just consider how unsuccessful Nazi efforts were to form British Free Corps. There were also fruitless efforts to drag Greeks into SS uniforms. To me, it appears that some nations were less susceptible to the Nazi propaganda.

 

Definitely true. When I visited Greece a few years ago, about the only things Nazi which can be associated were the captured submachine guns used by partisans I saw in museums and the Iron Crosses they were selling the Plaka They did, after all, staunch the Italian Invasion dead in its tracks. They were not ones to subject to fascism that easily.

 

Baltic states honour WWII veterans - of the SS - FRANCE 24

Rather nice piece about annual march of Latvian SS in Riga (who appear to perceive themselves as anti-soviet freedom fighters) to commemorate WW2

The Baltic experience seems to be very different to that of the most of the rest of Europe.

 

The Latvians are certainly more open about their involvement with the SS. They have always been fiercely anti-Bolshevist.

 

But Bolsheviks ceased to exist long time ago. Now, it’s time for Latvians to upgrade their rhetoric and say directly whom they consider as really bad guys.

 

The French are learning quickly. Napoleon has persuaded 500.000 Frenchmen to follow him to Moscow. Hitler has collected just 20.000 fools.

 

Their stamps were indeed referring to Napoleon

 

For similar reasons I have abandoned Austria on that list. Polish and Czech SS volunteers were probably all Volksdeutsche. Of course, there were many Poles and Czechs who collaborated with the Nazis and committed crimes but not as official SS-Waffen volunteers.

 

and what about this volunteer in 1943?