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various discussions on Islam

Discussion in 'Non-World War 2 History' started by majorwoody10, Aug 19, 2007.

  1. majorwoody10

    majorwoody10 New Member

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    i belive that all religions are the inventions of men .throughout history people lived a precarious life full of uncertainty and compared to us , a world where death was quite common .even the most primitive naked indians liveing in the amazon jungle belive in a supreme entity or entitys and some kind of afterlife .

    if their was drought or famine in pre colonial mexico , the aztec preists might say " see ,i told you so , we didnt cut out enough hearts last year at our sunshine festival ".almost ALL deeply religious peoples tend to belive that their paticular sect is the correct one and everyone else is wrong and bound for hell in a handbasket .who cares what people belive ,its their acts we must be concerned about .

    my mom was raised a good irish catholic girl and attempted in my early years to direct me down the correct path to salvation but by the time i was 12 i had lived in many different cultures and began to have my doubts about the primacy of any one religion . by the time i was 15 i was fairly certain that moses didnt part any sea ,that noah did not save all the worlds animals from a huge world flood and that eve was not the product of one of adams rib bones .these fairy tales might have seemed plausible to irish peasants 200 years ago but were insuportable to any open minded or well read american kid in mid sixties america . it least to one who was no longer dragged to sunday school ...

    i find television evangalists loathsome and ridiculous but i have many christian freinds and neighbors whom i admire and like as long as they dont try to convert me ,actually i dont even mind argueing their beliefs and the bible ,creation ,ect. these debates always end badly for them , how could it be otherwise ,i have geology ,anthropology ,astronomy ,paleantology , history and the modern world of knowlege .they have asops fables in the bible ,which they feel compelled to belive ,just because ...at least christians can chose to belive some parts of their texts and not so much others .muslims do not have this option .

    the point is ,the most oppresive and back country hick baptist ,pentecostle ,snake handleing ,speaking in tongues bible thumper is not a real threat to me or to western civilization .annoying perhaps but not dangerous .

    back in the days of their really long muskets and great curved sabres the the arab corsairs and morros wernt much of a threat to the west ( except for shipping in the med ). i was , for most of my life , content to let the muslims live in their backward ,dusty ,misoginous and utterly corrupt societys .they were a threat only to the isralies and their unfortunate niehbors in india and south east asia .times have changed .

    while beduoin tribesmen on camels might be hostlie and bigoted towards us ,their very backwardness and distant location was enough to diminish a real threat . today, well -to do muslim doctors ,engineers and students who have benifitted from expensive universitys in the west , we have to regard more carefully, oasamas angels of death were not illitterate feydayan

    .i realize that though only a tiny percentage of these people are truly hostile and malevolent ,it only takes a very small group of them to create a huge loss of life .the muslim world has not created or invented anything for a thousand years but they are now willing to use our science ,commerce and weaponry to attack us where we live and imo we have to take them seriously .

    apologists for islam ,for some reason always attack the judeo christian tradition and the crimes of the thirty years war .there were surely some bad acting christians however i dont think jesus himself ever advised his flock to attack ,kill ,plunder and rape those who were not christians .

    moses said " thou shall not kill" ,jesus said to" turn the other cheek" ,sidihartha would not swat a fly .all great religions are not created equal .some religions are malevolent ,there are hundreds of millions of muslims and their numbers are growing rapidly .even the most secular and moderate muslims know that they dare not question or critique the words of the prophet and the prophet is unambiguous about the final solution for the spawn of apes ,pigs and dogs .

    some of you have muslim freinds or neighbors ,please ask them sometime what they belive to be true about your own geneology from way back in time .we cant blame muslims for what they have been brainwashed to belive since infancy .we must sooner or later confront islamic texts extolling bigotry ,jihad and ethnic cleansing but given the current pc appeasment attitudes of western leaders this wont happen until there is another 911.if its a really big 911 then so called moderate muslims will have wished they had been alot more outspoken and proactive .

    i must go now as nature calls and the nearest fire hydrent is 200 yards away ...
     
  2. smeghead phpbb3

    smeghead phpbb3 New Member

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    Why not?
    Belief is a most personal of choices, and is often based on one's education. You can educate anyone as a child, even a Muslim *gasp* to have a good moral understanding of the world... If only the Colonial powers had focused on educating developing countries and not converting them, this whole problem might have been sorted out centuries ago.

    Just as the west has benefited from the services of educated foreigneers. The implication that providing education and employment to foreign workers is somehow 'benevolent' is quite arrogant, I have never seen any sick person refuse the services of a doctor because he is not a westerner...

    Technology and science are not individual concepts and inventions developed entirely by and belonging to individual nation states. They are a developing constant, each innovation owes as much to the inventor as to the theories it was based upon. What would the car be without the wheel? What would quantumn physics be without the concept of numbers? "Our" technology and civilisation owes much to the civlisations which pioneered out way of life.

    Again you seem to erroneously assume that it is beyond the mental capacity of the Muslim to be selective in the choice of his followings. Like you have yourself said, it is permissable for a Christian or Jew to omit the bloodthirsty chapters of the Old Testament from his beliefs... But it is not due to what his religion permits him to do , as you say, it is due to his capacity to exercise choice... Muslims in many developing countries are restricted in this capacity, not by the religion itself, but by the persecution by others in the event that they do not obey the law.

    So change the law. And not by simply forcibly grafting our western principles onto their legal system. Magical solutions do not exist, people will be offended inevitably, and that will create more violence. Its what Hitler did when he took over a country. Nations have a sovereign right to choose such things for themselves, so allow the culture to develop for itself means with which which to deal with such problems acceptable both to its own culture and to international humanitarian law. It'll take some time, and in the meantime more people will die, but thats the way the rotten world is...

    Honestly, a few hiccups in the world (which past societys' would be thankful for) and everyone is sceraming that the Middle East is unsalvageable, than the UN is useless and that Islam is a single, unchangeable doctrine of war. We are living in the most peaceful time humanity has ever know, and it has spoilt us
     
  3. majorwoody10

    majorwoody10 New Member

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    smeg , what is it that you imagine the colonial powers could have taught the momeens ,art ? sorry no pictures please ...science ..no again ,the mountains hold up the sky, and many other truths are already known according to islamic texts ,mabey law and justice ,democracy ,the classics ?


    in their eyes , there is nothing that the muslim world needs the west to teach them ,cause its ALL explained in the koran ,already ..if the colonial governers attenpted to teach anything to the muslim children , he would have a riot within a few hours ,however p.c. you think it might have been to teach western knowlege to the poor benighted musselmen , they dont want any teaching .they learn only one book and its all knowing

    the west had the age of enlightenment and basically a breaking of the power of the church in the west ,the muslim world did not and cannot break from the power of their clergy ,nor do they want to .hence the lack of any progerss .int the arts ,science ,hummanties .govt ,ect . in the west the modorn age started about 1800 and rapidly progressed to the present , the muslim world is holding fast at ad 1200 .
     
  4. Skua

    Skua New Member

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    But that is not true, Roel. Other religions does not have a foundation which contain equally violent subject matter. If you tear out from the Bible the passages about men who shall not sleep with men, women who shall keep quiet and slaves who should behave themselves, it would not make much of a difference. And what is the foundation of Christianity? Turning the other cheek, forgive and love your neighbour, and stuff like that. Sure, Christians does not always follow that path. The foundation of Islam is submission to a set of rules which extends to every part of your life, including how to wipe your arse. Those who does not submit to these rules shall be punished. Luckily, neither does all the Muslims follow the rules. The foundation of Christianity is spiritual and therefore survivable to social changes and all other aspects of progress, the foundation of Islam is political and would be castrated just by having to adapt to for example gender equality.

    It would be a generalisation, but it's not promoting bias and polarization. Take the Norwergian neo-Nazis as an example. Most of their followers are, judging from their behaviour so far, harmless. Would Norwegian neo-Nazism in your opinion not be potentially dangerous or not worthy of being on the alert of? Of course not, which only goes to show that your statement is something you haven't given much thought about. It sounds more like the spine reaction of the politically correct.

    Sometimes we have to generalise groups to have a meaningful debate.

    What an odd statement, Roel. Of course there is a direct correlation between the text in the Quran and the Hadith literature and how the Muslim perceives everything he is exposed to. This goes for Christians and every other religious human beings as well, so why should it not be true for the Muslim? Assuming we are not talking about the most secular examples of the group of course.


    You are not judging the followers at all, which is not the same as judging by the same standard. A religion or ideology is nothing without its followers. Nazism is the most despicable ideology ever, but I don't spend much time worrying about it. Why, because it does not have enough followers to be of any threath to the values I want to defend.


    I would never make the claim that my view on the world is not influenced by political correctness at all, simply because I know it is not true. Anyway, I believe you have to think again if you think that critisizing Christianity is anywhere near being politically incorrect.

    I saw this Danish documentary about a black metal band the other day. On the wall in their studio they had written ''Kill the Christians'' ( ''Dræb de kristne'' ). No one reacts to things like that, even though it is a rather violent statement. But imagine if they had written ''Kill the Muslims'' or ''Kill the Jews'' instead, what do you think the reaction would have been then? Even ''Kill the Sikhs'' or ''Kill the Hindus'' would have raised a few eyebrows.

    Critisizing Christianity takes no courage, you don't have to fear for your life, loosing your job or being socially outcasted. Try doing the same to Islam and see what happens. In all fairness though, not all of the consequenses will be because of Islam. Many of them will be because of political correctness.

    Who knows, maybe political correctness is a much more dangerous mindset than any religion right now?

    Now you are just twisting words, Roel. I'm not doing anything to Islam which you are not doing to Christianity, and you are not doing anything to Christianity which I haven't done as well.

    Who has claimed that the land and peoples conquered by Islam, by the sword as you now seem to accept, turned completely Muslim overnight? The goal of early Islam was power and wealth for their followers, it wasn't always in the followers interest that everybody converted to Islam. Non-Muslims had to pay taxes for not being Muslims, they did not have the same juridical or social rights as Muslims. That you still find so many Copts in Egypt, though they have been dramatically reduced in numbers since Egypt gained independence, might have something to do with the fact that Egypt have been under the control of colonial powers and enjoyed some protection by that. But indeed, Islam has radicalized in the past thirty or fourty years.
     
  5. majorwoody10

    majorwoody10 New Member

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    im not sure why the apologists for islam always wish to turn any discusion thereof into an attack on christianity but they often do .before the age of reason the christian church had great power in the west ,it was often intolerant ,corrupt ,malicious and certainly it was against any scientidfic progress .the crusades ,thirty years war ,inquisition ect all happened ....so what ?

    ,the christian church today is without the will or the power to cause us secular types any harm .even the most persistant door knoking bible thumper is ,at worst , annoying .most active christiangroups are hardworking ,kind ,benevolent to the needy and certainly non violent ,they tend to be moraly conservative but ibve found as i grow older ,thats not such a terrible thing .

    islam is by its own admission ,hostile to everything we hold dear in the west ,democracy ,rule of law ,equality ,freedom of speech ,press and religion are an anathma to the teachings of mohamid .islam is not just a religion ,it is also the the law and strives to be the government as well .

    i agree that most ordinary muslims would prefer to go on about their lives and live and let live .just as most people who profess to be christians have never read the bible ,most of the worlds muslims have not read the koran .the problem for us ,is that the moslims who HAVE read the koran are pretty much duty bound to make war on non muslims .

    any peoples who have historicaly share a fronteer with any muslim power has had to resist invasion at one time or another ,in africa, s.e. asia and india , there is now and always has been sizable butchers bill to be paid in non muslim lives for the accident of liveing near "the religion of peace "

    we in the west have only started to pay this bill and so far , i must agree with roel ,the actual cost has been a tiny hiccup .its the next big bill of ladeing that worries me .and what is MORE worriesome , imo , is the islamification of europe .
    barring the outbreak of a catistrophic plague ,this downward and backward slide of europe into darkness is inevitable .if this happens in 30 are 60 years , it will leave america and the anzaks as the last bastions of western civiliation and this would be a sad thing ,imo .
     
  6. smeghead phpbb3

    smeghead phpbb3 New Member

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    Well Woody, I can see that I'm not going to be able to change your mind :( ... But I do urge you to read different translations fo the Koran for yourself, and not to simply believe what the gaggle of TV reporters and anti-Islamic academics are saying... Then decide for yourself if Islam is an unreformable doctrine of submission and war... I'll give you a few quotes to get started :D

    Given that the Koran calls for the death of infidels, we must define what the infidel is. The Koran says he is on who does not believe in the Allah, or one who persucutes the prohpet or Muslims... Allah is just the Islamic term for Yahweh, or the "one true God"... Christians and Jews are therefore not infidels unless they persecute the prophet or Muslims...

    Koran 5:82
    Surely they that believe, and those of Jewry, and the Christians, and those Sabeaans, whoso believes in God and the Last Day, and works righteousness--their wage waits them with their Lord, and no fear shall be on them, neither shall they sorrow.

    The Koran therefore recognises the legitimacy of other Religions

    Also a misunderstanding which can be rebutted with a bit of reading... Despite all the discussion to the contrary, the Koran provides for the right of women to obtain education, a divorce, legal process... etc.

    Koran 4:19 O you who believe! You are forbidden to inherit women against their will. Nor should you treat them with harshness, that you may take away part of the martial gift you have given them, except when they have been guilty of open lewdness; on the contrary, live with them on a footing of kindness and equity. If you take a dislike to them, it may be that you dislike a thing through which Allah brings about a great deal of good.

    An exellect site to learn about gender equalty and the Koran http://www.jannah.org/genderequity/index.html

    Like the Bible, the Koran contains good and just teachings... It is just a pity that not all followers obey them, that like the Bible, it is and has historically been subject to gross intepretation, and that Islam is a religion which does not have the good fortune of being situated in the most socially developed and stable areas of the world...

    Don't know what you've been hearing about Anzakistan, we have a sizeable Islamic community and we pride ourselves on being a multicultural society accepting of all races and religions... Once you get in, anyway
     
  7. Skua

    Skua New Member

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    Yes, and the woman has exactly the same rights as a man. Her voice counts just as much as the man ... NOT!! Please don't insult us with this load of crap, smeghead. We all know that the Quran gives women rights, and we have all heard the argument that even though they were limited at least Muslim women had rights, but how does those very limited rights spell gender equality to you, smeghead?

    Perhaps you should do a bit of reading yourself?
     
  8. majorwoody10

    majorwoody10 New Member

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    in mohamids early days when he was weak and had few followers ,his words were often quite tolerant towards the people of the book ie. christians and jews .later when the most powerful warlord in arabia ,he was much less inclined to peacful coexistance with any other religion .

    as to the legal status of women in islamic countries ,i dont even quite know where to begin .equalty for women? surely smeg is makeing a joke

    if a woman wishes to bring a charge of rape ,in an islamic court ,to file .she needs three male eyewitnesses ,not of her family .
    the testimony of any woman in any case is given half the weight of any muslim male witness .testmony from infidels also counts as half that of a muslim male .

    the only place muslim women enjoy actual legal equality is when they live in the west . in america and europe muslim women are legally equals but of course still subject to beatings or honur killings within their own housholds .

    islam regards women as chattle and gives them equalty with donkeys .at least donkeys are rarely beaten fo going outside uncovered and almost never stoned to death for adultery .

    farm animals are very often victim of brutal aggravated rape in muslim countrys , but im not sure how many witnesses they need to bring charges .
     
  9. smeghead phpbb3

    smeghead phpbb3 New Member

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    It certainly does not disqualify it, becuase I am able to recognise that gender equality does not begin and end with a single book. The teachings of the Koran, like the Bible, should ideally be intepreted as a choice, not as law. Prohibiting a person from practising Islam would be no less deplorable than forcing someone to do so, as it restricts the freedom of individuals to practise religion, a constitutuional right if i am not mistaken... But I see no problem with any person subscribing to Islam when it is their personal choice to do so. I neither understand nor care why you have such a problem; Islam is, as you said, a set of rules, and as far as i see it, if someone wishes to pursue them then they should be absolutely free to do so, so long as it does not conflict with the laws of the state... Where stoning women in football stadiums is permissable by the laws of a state, i see it as a problem with the legal system, not with the religion from which people 'claim' to take the authority. Understand that Religion is an evolving and intepretable choice, not something with is set in stone and definately not something which should dictate law, for the sole reason that it is intepretable.

    Yes, in secular legal countries where Relgion and Law are sensibly kept far apart. There is no reason why Islam cannot exist peacefully in a secular society, and the fact that every Islamic immigrant upon moving to the EU, does not immediately reunouce his faith, is testament to the fact that there is more appeal and integrity of the religion than pressure applied by the goons back in Darfur who will lop off your limbs if you name a teddy bear Muhammad... Such despicable legal decisions in the Islamic world are the product of Islamic jurists and the processs of Itjihad; man-made judgments and therefore fallible in the eyes of Muslims... As in the west it is the role of jurists to intepret the law, only in this case, the law is the "word of God" which also must be intepreted... Understand that obtaining the "word of God" is a more difficult process than just giving the Koran a quick flip-through, and do not assume that Islam is on single faith with one single point of view. The Sunnah is varied and frequently conflicting, and very little of the Koran is dedicated to the contemplation of law. Many of the issues which we are debating now, such as women in Islam are subject to equal debate and uncertainty amonst Muslim scholars... Religion is about intepretation. and there is no reasons whatsoever why Islam is incapable of being intepreted in a manner consistent with secular society...
     
  10. Skua

    Skua New Member

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    But that is exactly the difference between the teachings of Bible and the Quran, at least from a Christian point of view as there are passages of laws in the Bible as well. The Quran teaches the law while the Bible from the perspective of the Christian teaches the individual spiritual and moral responsibility, but nothing as absolute and inreversible as the Quran.

    Freedom of religion is a human right in most non-Muslim countries. But freedom of religion means more than the right to practise your religion without fear of negative consequenses. It also means the individuals freedom from religion. The question you need to ask yourself is if freedom of religion is more important than other human rights like freedom of expression, the right to not be discriminated against because of your gender or the right to live as a homosexual. And what you think should be a priority when these rights collide, because that is just what they do all the time. Perhaps we can have a more meaningful discussion when you have done that?

    The countries who stone women in football stadiums follow the Islamic laws, how can this not be the problem of the religion. Are you at all familiar with the concept of Sharia? Sure, everything is interpretable, but I don't see Sharia leaving that much room for different interpretations. And those who choose to follow Sharia usually does so in a very similar way.

    Another false pretension you have is that ''religion is an evolving and intepretable choice'', a pretension you seem to understand as ''written in stone'' yourself. Not saying that Islam is completely impossible to change, it is a very anti-intellectual, conservative and conserving religion, much more so than most other religions.
     
  11. Ricky

    Ricky New Member

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    hmm... lots of odd things being said about Christianity...


    While the first is there, you'd have to look very hard to find the second, and only remove half a passage for the third.

    I believe the piece you are thinking of is the
    "Wives obey your husbands, husbands love your wives. Slaves serve your master, master treat your slaves well" passage.
    This needs to be contextualized - at the time this letter was written, to the audience it was written to, only the first half of these instructions was the cultural norm. The advice given is actually quite counter-cultural and very pro-equality - ie: yes your slave should obey you, but you should treat him as a human being. Every Relationship is (or should be) 2-sided.

    And on the subject of the first - the Bible is very explicit that (any) sin is bad, but sinners should be loved anyway. Something lots of people need to get into their hearts.

    Sorry, what? Since when was the Bible a book of choices?

    "I am the LORD your God who brought you out of the land of Egypt, from the house of slavery. You shall have no other gods before Me..."
    "Do not make an image or any likeness of what is in the heavens above..."
    "Do not swear falsely by the name of the LORD..."
    "Remember the Sabbath day and keep it holy"
    "Honor your father and your mother..."
    "Do not murder"
    "Do not commit adultery."
    "Do not steal."
    "Do not bear false witness against your neighbor"
    "Do not covet your neighbor's wife"

    Doesn't sound like a list of choices to me.


    And it teaches the group or corporate responsibilities of the church (all believers) as a whole. :wink: Plus, as before, It's not really a book of choices. Yes, it is more open to interpretation (usually but not always a good thing) but most of the important points are quite clear-cut.


    While the church was often intolerant, corrupt and malicious, the charge that it was 'certainly' against scientific progress is utter rubbish. If that was true, then society in the 1400s would have been almost exactly the same as society on the 400s. Same tools, same use of metals and chemicals, same weaponry, same navigational instruments, etc etc. Ooops.

    What the church was against was any learning that might run counter to their rather odd interpretations of religion. Hence the infamous Gallileo case, and the unwillingness to use science discovered by non-Christians (the ancient Greeks and the various Islamic nations being the usual suspects here.)
     
  12. majorwoody10

    majorwoody10 New Member

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    well , i guess i would say that prior to the age of discovery and reason there was very little in the way of earth shakeing scientific discovery . ordinary people in europe in 1400 lived and died much like their forbearers in ad 400 .the collapse of rome , the mini ice age and bubonic plague were not the fault of the church but these things did impede progress and if anything made the the christian church more powerful .

    the church was the small beacon of light in what was otherwise a dark age .in the west the age of enlightenment was proven brighter than the simple candlepower of the church ,today in the secular west , the christian church grows ever weaker but by the crushing indoctrination of islamic born children and its by its unyeilding birthrate islam grows ever stronger

    the main problem with islam for us , is that it does not concede a division between the power of the state and religion .the power of the state and religion are regarded as one and the same .even the most secular of islamic states are under constant pressure from the devout within, to become proper islamic theocracys and these theocracys are duty bound to spread the power of islam .in 79 kohmani assured the jubilant revolutionary gaurd in iran that this islamic victory was only the beginning .the fact that france ,for years , gave kohmeni shelter and asylum does not change the fact that france is a little satan and all satans must atone in blood or submit to islam .

    i know the imans and mullahs dont have the military knowhow or power to conquer the world as they nearly did in the late middle ages but i think it would be foolish to not regard their intent with a healthy respect .we can negotiate and appease them all we want .it does not change their stated master plan and they are patient and methodical warriors .

    mohamid condones and even advises useing lies and deception as needed when dealing with powerful infidels .sign treatys ,agree to whatever the infidels want if it makes them lay down their gaurd .there is no dishonour when it comes to sucker punching disbelivers .there is a strict code of moralty when dealing with other muslims (there was only one muslim faith in mohameds time ) when dealing with infidels ,the gloves come off .

    as they like to point out ,we in the west fear death while they love and embrace death .suicide jihad bombers illustrate this concept for us daily and in the age of wmds , we must pay attention to what they say ,what they do and what they say they are going to do . after all they are not secretive about it at all .

    what is strange is how many people in the west want to pretend that this current jihad is about poverty or education or the legacy of colonialsm or even the support of israel .the very existance of the west .the great ,middle and little satans are all abominations in the eyes of god and all of us infidels that support democracy, tolerance and free will need to sit up and pay attention .none of this is going to go away merely by wishful thinking or appeasment .

    islam is not a live and let live kind of philosophy and there is no shortage of devout muslims who will do what they have to do to set the world right .if holy jihad unleashes nuclear winter or a worldwide super plague which destroys the muslim world as well as ours ,so be it ..the lord works in mysterious ways .

    i realize that most ordinary muslims do not want to see the destruction of their world or the death of their wives and children any more than we want it for ours .this is beside the point .what we must be concerned about is what SOME small minority of deeply devout muslims want to do . the age of fearless turbined warriors and jannisaries with great curved scimiters is past .modern jihadists might hate our technolegy and culture but they are perfectly willing to use our jetliners ,computers ,commerce ,open borders and shipping against us as we have seen on numerous occasions .

    a cell phone can detonate an ied in bagdad or a fairly simple dirty bomb in a shipping container at heathrow or lax .a deadly pathogen can be delivered by a sneezing saudi exchange student on american airlines directly to chicago or the bullet train to paris .why build icbms when you can use ups ?
     
  13. jeaguer

    jeaguer New Member

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    Islam , like western Christianity and the Mormon faith is a proselytizing religion , I.E. it is a religious obligation to help your fellow man by showing him the true path to salvation .

    It is the moral equivalent of showing a traveler the correct path in a swamp full of quick sands !

    buddists , eastern Christians and other , believe in mentioning the pit falls to you but after that it's pretty much your own business .

    Hindu believe we are , at birth ,destined to our path , interfering would be pointless

    I've red the Koran , know a bit about the sects and movement within Dar Islam , seem plenty of Arab muslims , lived with some and know they have their own concerns , usually similar to ours , some issues about the westerners , not all of them imaginary
    .... they are essentially humans like us .

    I deeply believe Islam is a regressive religion , setting people back from a modern scientific society , promoting bigotry and backwardness
    but do not feel strongly about changing their ways , let them work it out !

    This tolerance of Islam in their own countries do no extend to my own ,
    I believe that Islam cannot co-exist with a free lifestyle and a free mind ,
    and have come to consider Islam as an viral infestation ,
    To eradicate it and the infected is a necessary act of self-defense for my world to survive and prosper , even at the cost of downgrading the judicial standards of a free society .


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  14. Skua

    Skua New Member

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    Paulus first letter to Timoteus 2,11.
     
  15. Gunter_Viezenz

    Gunter_Viezenz New Member

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    To be fair the Qu'ran was written in an old Arabic and therefore is hardly understood correctly my Muslims themselves. I assume you have read the translated versions in which it is even more common for mistakes in interpretation to occur because although Islam favours personal interpretation of the Qu'ran when read a translated version that is lost and you are gaining the interpretation of the translator.

    I can hardly see how Islam is a regressive religion, neither does it promote bigotry, I also do not see how it is backwards. Althought I have found many examples of Muslims being shocked by the materialism of the western world.

    Considering I have went to a Catholic High School built next to a Sunni mosque, I cannot share this opinion. I have many Muslim friends who have went to the high school with me and took my to the Mosque and taught me about Islam. For I too used to share a similar point of view that you demonstrated. But I have come to realize that most my beliefs were incorrect.

    All personal beliefs aside I you cannot kill an idea, paraphrasing a Polish satirist of the communist era - To become free in a state of thought control is the multiply your thoughts so there is not enough police to suppress them all.
     
  16. jeaguer

    jeaguer New Member

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    .

    I read it In translation , my Arabic extend to a dozen words ,

    As for what I write it is the way the way I feel ,
    I claim not to be right ...only to believe what I said totally ,
    I love the western society and believe it is under assault from without and within ,
    in spite of all it's faults it is the guiding light of humanity ,
    its materialist is strictly identical to any other society with the same resources ,
    its morality equal or above any others , with less hypocrisy
    People who swan about primitive life and the dignity thereof have no clues about the underlying brutality of its existence

    As for oriental paradises they never existed except for a small minority of wealthy rulers , the peasants as usual were mercilessly squeezed

    Islam has a perfect record of failure to set up free societies , to this day the only ones with some claim to it own their structure and rules to the west's influence ,good or bad

    Should western Europe turn Muslim as there is a debatable possibility , a slow downward drift into a stultifying backwardness would be its only future


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  17. majorwoody10

    majorwoody10 New Member

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    you cannot kill an idea but you can kill people and muslims will certainly kill people over ideas , they will kill because of a drawing in a newspaper or some words from a christian leader .they will kill fellow muslims should they have an idea to leave the faith .hundreds of millions have died for haveing only the idea that allah is not their god and mohamid is not their prophet .

    want to know who commited the biggest genocide in history , hitler , stalin ,mao ?...nope ,if we leave aside the invasions of africa ,europe ,se asia and the middle east ,the muslim invasion of india takes the top honours ,muslims also take top place in the art of slave raiding worldwide and this is an art they have not entirely fogone even today .

    islam might seem like a good idea to muslims but its a terrible idea for the rest of the worlds people .read up on what happened to the hapleaa hidus when the' religion of peace" came a calling .
     
  18. Skua

    Skua New Member

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    This is an old and much used excuse which has never been supported by any facts.

    Many muslims are shocked by the liberties of women, open homosexuality and freedom of expression. Materialism on the other hand seems to be easier to accept. Why do you think they came to the West in the first place?

    I found some muslims who are less politically correct/supporting of Islamic fundamentalism than you and the other apologists by the way, have a look at what they write. These are the Muslims I'm siding with.

    http://www.reformislam.org/

    [​IMG]
     
  19. Gunter_Viezenz

    Gunter_Viezenz New Member

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    I am unfamiliar with that care to enlighten me with a link?
     
  20. Skua

    Skua New Member

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    So you are unfamiliar with both the slavetrading states of North Africa and the Muslim persecution of Hindus and still want to educate us on Islam?
     

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