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Vichy France Diplomacy

Discussion in 'Information Requests' started by ActionHeroTrainee, Apr 2, 2013.

  1. ActionHeroTrainee

    ActionHeroTrainee New Member

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    Greetings everyone. Assistance is requested for a story I am attempting to write. This is only background information for a relatively minor character, by no means the main plot or setting of the story, so it's not critical, just something I wanted to make sure didn't wander too far off the tracks.

    The character in question will be French, the child of a diplomat, and will have spent considerable time in Japan in the 1930's, during which time I presume France and Japan had diplomatic relations.

    So, here come the questions (thought not everything is phrased in the form of a question, feel free to discuss, correct me where I'm wrong, etc.)

    -----------

    What happens in all the French embassies when the Germans attack and the armistice signed? I presume it remains "business as usual" as one Prime Minister (Reynaud) resigned and another (Petain) took his place. Without getting into a debate over the "legitimacy" of the Vichy vs. Free French governments, etc, for all intents and purposes France remained France, and diplomatic relations were maintained with the government of the new Prime Minister except for those rare cases where relations were specifically severed for a particular reason (such as sinking a big part of the French Navy.)

    So I'm guessing there would be a French Embassy in Tokyo and it would continue to function through the early 1940's, representing the interests of the Petain government? I also presume that any official at any Embassy who did not wish to be a representative of the Vichy government would be in the position of either sucking it up or ... Or what? Could he resign and get a ticket back to France? Or would he have to "defect"? And where to, if all the major powers of the world continued to recognize the new French government? I guess he could simply resign and move to another country if he had the means, but that's easier said than done.

    ----

    Then, how would the events of December 7 and the following days affect (Vichy) France's relations with other countries - specifically those countries who found themselves at war with the Axis powers? Did the major Allied powers then sever diplomatic relations?

    Was Vichy France ever at war with the US or the UK, or did these countries simply decide the government in exile was the "real" France and ignore the other one?

    I presume the French Embassy in Japan remain open for business, right?

    ------

    What about passports issued by France? Since the Vichy government technically remained the government of the German occupied area, would a person in Paris under the occupation be allowed to travel internationally to countries not involved in the war (such as the US prior to December 1941) under a previously issued French passport?

    What about traveling on a (Vichy) French passport after December 1941?

    And finally ------

    In the days following the Japanese attack on Pearl Harbor, how would a civilian (with the financial means) most likely travel from Hawaii to Australia? (Financial means meaning not rich, but able to afford a ticket.)

    ===============

    Thanks in advance for any help you can offer.

    Doug
     
  2. urqh

    urqh Tea drinking surrender monkey

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    Well one answer only from me...After Pearl...Vichy and USA relations were still fairly reasonable. And this was a good thing..Contact and future actions at the forefront of all minds. In fact in Vichy Syria before Pearl, the British allowed transit of off duty leave personel unhindered travel back and forth to France before Vichy Syria was taken out.
     
  3. ActionHeroTrainee

    ActionHeroTrainee New Member

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    Thank you for your prompt response.

    I'm guessing that's because they weren't at war with one another? Syria is one place I haven't given much thought to, so when you say "taken out" does that mean there was military conflict between British and French forces over control of Syria, or that French troops were evacuated?
     
  4. urqh

    urqh Tea drinking surrender monkey

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  5. scipio

    scipio Member

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    Much more complex than you might have thought - if you are serious about this, I suggest you read Colin Smith's book "England's last War with France"

    Quite a list - Mers el Kabir, Dakar, Madagascar, Syria etc

    http://www.amazon.co.uk/Englands-Last-War-Against-France/dp/0753827050

    PS Vichy forces in Indo-China actually fought a brief war with Japan.
     
  6. scipio

    scipio Member

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    [​IMG]

    Can't remember which book this came from but as you can see the old marshal did try to operate an independent line of diplomacy (when he was not nodding off, of course)
     
  7. Skipper

    Skipper Kommodore

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  8. urqh

    urqh Tea drinking surrender monkey

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    I'll rephrase that, British command invaded Syria...The Aussies at the forefront. And then for another thread....Iraq...Which is a wonderful story on its own.
     
  9. LRusso216

    LRusso216 Graybeard Staff Member

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    Excuse the Wiki response , but this seems to answer some of what you asked.

    United Kingdom
    The United Kingdom, shortly after the Armistice (22 June 1940), attacked a large French naval contingent in Mers-el-Kebir, killing 1,297 French military personnel. Unsurprisingly, Vichy severed diplomatic relations. Britain feared that the French naval fleet could wind up in German hands and be used against her own naval forces, which were so vital to maintaining worldwide shipping and communications. Under the armistice, France had been allowed to retain the French Navy, the Marine Nationale, under strict conditions. Vichy pledged that the fleet would never fall into the hands of Germany, but refused to send the fleet beyond Germany's reach, either by sending it to Britain, or even to far away territories of the French empire, such as the West Indies. This was not enough security for Winston Churchill. French ships in British ports were seized by the Royal Navy. The French squadron at Alexandria, under Admiral René-Emile Godfroy, was effectively interned until 1943 after an agreement was reached with Admiral Andrew Browne Cunningham, commander of the Mediterranean Fleet.

    United States
    The United States granted Vichy full diplomatic recognition, sending Admiral William D. Leahy to France as American ambassador. President Roosevelt and Secretary of State Cordell Hull hoped to use American influence to encourage those elements in the Vichy government opposed to military collaboration with Germany. The Americans also hoped to encourage Vichy to resist German war demands, such as for air bases in French-mandated Syria or to move war supplies through French territories in North Africa. The essential American position was that France should take no action not explicitly required by the armistice terms that could adversely affect Allied efforts in the war.
    President Roosevelt disliked Charles de Gaulle, who he saw as an "apprentice dictator.[4]" Robert Murphy, Roosevelt's representative in North Africa, prepared starting in December 1940 (a year before the United States' entrance into the war) the landing in Morocco and Algeria. The US first tried to support General Maxime Weygand, general delegate of Vichy for Africa until December 1941. This first choice having failed, they turned to Henri Giraud a short time before the landing in North Africa on November 8, 1942. Finally, after François Darlan's turn towards the Free Forces — Darlan had been president of Council of Vichy from February 1941 to April 1942 —, they played him against de Gaulle. US General Mark W. Clark of the combined Allied command made Admiral Darlan sign on 22 November 1942 a treaty putting "North Africa to the disposition of the Americans" and making of France "a vassal country.[4]" Washington then imagined, between 1941 and 1942, a protectorate status for France, who would be submitted after the Liberation to an Allied Military Government of Occupied Territories (AMGOT) as Germany. After the assassination of Darlan on 24 December 1942, Washington turned again towards Henri Giraud, to whom had rallied Maurice Couve de Murville, who had financial responsibilities in Vichy, and Jacques Lemaigre Dubreuil, a former member of La Cagoule and entrepreneur, as well as Alfred Pose, general director of the Banque nationale pour le commerce et l'industrie (National Bank for Trade and Industry).[4]
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Foreign_relations_of_Vichy_France
     
  10. ActionHeroTrainee

    ActionHeroTrainee New Member

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    Gee, I can't imagine why anyone would elect to deal with Petain when they could be engaging in diplomacy with de Gaulle. :sunglasses-peek:


    Interesting information, I'm feeling enlightened, as if another few pieces of the puzzle have been put into place -- pieces I didn't even know were missing. The "last war with France" book sounds like something I'd love -- though I'd have to put it on bottom of the pile of books I need to read asap, or maybe on top of the pile of books waiting to be read when I have the time.

    Does that sound like I read a lot? Sorry for that misconception. No, I just have a weakness that involves deluding myself into thinking I'll have time to read every book that catches my eye.

    I know real the evil behind Hitler's schemes was getting the French involved in the war, which resulted in such confused relationships militarily and diplomatically with the rest of the world. My initial research touched on some of the problems with Japan in Indochina. It would have made it easier on novices like me if France would have just gone on fighting - or even beaten Germany in the first place. But then we probably wouldn't be having this discussion, would we?

    Meanwhile ....... back to the original questions .... I would value informed opinions as well as documented facts.
     
  11. Skipper

    Skipper Kommodore

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  12. steverodgers801

    steverodgers801 Member

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    The French governor of Noumnea refused to talk with the Americans at first, but Halsey just landed troops and started building a base with out permission. There was no resistance and Halsey actually did a wonderful job working with various officials to get them to cooperate with the Americans. Halsey understood how to negotiate with them and they ended up liking him and being unofficial allies.
     
  13. freebird

    freebird Member

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    By steamer or by flying boat, although I believe the air option may have ended soon after the US entered the war
     

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