Was it possible for the Graf Spee to break out of Montevideo?

Moderator Edit - I moved this out of the What If forum, it seems to be more of a request for an explanation, rather than a "wht if teh Graff Spea had ben able to unleesh its weepons on the Birtish cruisers?" type questions we sometimes get here. Carry on, my friend.



I have seen this question raised several times, and would like to know the opinion of the Rouges, of what might have happened. For this what if I respectfully request that hindsight is not used.

Graf Spee is ready to sail. Significant repairs have yet to be made to the ship. From the point of view of where the ship is docked, you can see three British cruisers laying smoke and preparing for battle. They know you are coming. Beyond the smoke screen you have no idea, but talk around town says a British carrier and battleship have reinforced the cruisers. Graf Spee has approximately 1/3 of her ammunition for the main 11” guns. Range is on your side, but the enemy cruisers are faster and can close the gap fairly quickly. Out of action are the port 6” gun, starboard AA guns, and rangefinders. On top of this you have a fuel problem. Unable to fix the fuel-separating system, Graf Spee has approximately 4 and ½ hours of usable fuel left.

My take on any attempt to break out of Montevideo is that the Graf Spee would have been immediately attacked by two British cruisers while the third maneuvered around for a torpedo attack. Graf Spee would have proven herself against the British once again, causing heavy damage to Cumberland (I estimate Cumberland since I believe she was the biggest). After about a half hour fight Graf Spee would be forced into a closer battle than she would have liked being forced to use the 6” guns, since ammunition for the 11” guns has been depleted. In the end Graf Spee would be sitting upon the bottom of the ocean floor. I do not believe in any way she could have broken out. Had she succeeded she would have soon run out of fuel, and would be dead in the water. The biggest difference I see is another 500-750 dead sailors on both sides.

What’s your take?

 

I'm not sure she would run out of fuel if she managed to break out but I seam to recall that her desalinziation plant was non functional and she didn't have enough fresh water to make it back to Germany. I suspect if she engaged the British ships all three would have closed although they might have split up two and one as before with the CA somewhat distant from her. Had her fire control damage been fixed yet? If not she may not give nearly as good of an account of herself. Cumberland also has more guns than Exeter from what I recall. If Spee concentrates on Cumberland there's the possibity that she makes smoke and maneuvers to minimize hits while the other two cruisers get a free ride. Spee wasn't going to make it home in any case.

 

There was very little chance of a successful return to Germany. The auxiliary boiler had been wrecked, but I don't recall if it was on the list of irreparable items. I don't know about the status of the forward 28cm turret, which had been malfunctioning. But in any case, she was in worse circumstances than she had been before the battle when she could not free herself of the British cruisers. An attempt to fight it out, then, might accomplish several things: getting more crewmen killed, inflicting some casualties on the British, avoiding the German humiliation and British morale boost that occurred historically, and negating any chance of the British examining top-secret German radar gear.

 

Thanks for your input guys. Both of you had mentioned no chance of making it back to Germany. Was it possible for her too possibly make Mar del Plata, Argentina? Would Argentina have allocated the requested two weeks for repairs?

 

Given two more weeks the British have at least one BC available and maybe a CV. Best move if the Germans want to see her in Argentina is to sell her to the Argentines and let them move her.

 

The Battle of River Plate - Damage, Loss and Status The balance sheet of damage and loss resulting from the Battle of the River Plate (all damage to the British ships having been inflicted by the German ship's main 28 cm armament) was:
Exeter: 61 dead, 23 wounded. "A" turret shut down due to flooded magazine, "B" turret knocked out. Hits in forecastle, serious fire and flooding below decks. Bow-heavy trim, speed reduced, enforced retirement from battle.
Ajax: 7 dead and wounded. "X" and "Y" turrets plus one 6 in gun on forward turret knocked out. Mainmast demolished.
Achilles: 4 dead. Superficial damage only.
Graf Spee: 36 dead, 60 wounded. Seventeen 6 inch hits causing minor damage, two 8 inch hits in nonvulnerable areas below armour deck, but oil purification and desalination plants destroyed, all kitchens wrecked. Ammunition stocks very low.
Essential repairs at Montevideo would have kept Admiral Graf Spee there for more than 72 hours, that being the maximum period allowed a belligerent warship to repair in a neutral port under international law. Cut off from home bases and having no hope of convincing this pro-British neutral state to bend the rules, the ship's captain saw himself caught in a trap.



You could breakout...
Fresh water could have been found in the 72 hrs

internal communications repaired to some degree.....runners will have work,
maybe flag messages with spotters reporting as to firing and what ship to fire on.
for torpedo firing...

You breakout near dusk,
your attempt is too break the line and run east towards Africa.
you have the setting sun/night sky silhoette the enemy behind you,
you make smoke.

your turns if needed to fire main battery and torpedo's at British ships chasing.

anything to break up their persuit.

 

Well.....first off,.....you fight,
you do not leave the enemy a trophy like this to use a media win !




Graf Spee has the advantage of surprise and distance of her main battery's.
You breakout at Dusk.

In a break out....she can split the British line by a series of shooting designed to make the British ships move.
She does not have to hit any....simply get them moving.
as she nears....quick turns to unmask rear turret to fire....
and to fire a spread of torpedo's.
Make smoke,....quick turns...and look for the opening to dash thru.

once thru....she has the British ships sihloetted behind via the setting sun/night sky
and advantage for her rear turret.
Graf Spee can still make a few more turns to unmask and fire torpedo's....
then run for Africa : )

On a final note,.....Captain Hans Langsdorf was wrong to have put into a neutral port,
and wrong in his decision to scuttle the proud Battle Cruiser.
From photo's I have seen....this ship had many operational guns.
Hitler had every right to be furious and kick chairs around,
the war has just begun.....and now you have a powerfull battle cruiser
which has dinged the enemy good,
go and lay prostrate in cowardice.
If Langsford could not make the call.....lock him in a room and let the Exec
fight the battle to its conlcusion.
Images are powerfull mediums....
take the Flag Hoist pic on Iwo Jima....
images can win or lose a war for you.
Langsdorf wasn't thinking....he gave the British a better victory than they could imagine.
not likely the Brits get a pic of Graf Spee going down at night.

Did Langsdorf disobey standing orders?

What does blowing your brains out on the ships battle flag in a hotel room signify to your nation?

 

Yes, it was the ships job to fight, no question of that.

But are we privvy to what infomation as to regard forces await outside.

I have no quibble with the rest, putting into neutral port etc, a commanders job to lead, fight, etc.

But I dont know what he was informed or thought lay out there beyond the 3 curisers.
Destroyers? A force of destroyers doing what they do best and their duty and orders would have pressed home their attack even if suicidal. Langsdorf had to think, I am going no where...no hindsight allowed, so we cant say that indeed he could have made it out past the cruisers...This though was probably not his primary thought...It was whatever lay beyond those cruisers he was most probably worried about...And for this reason the British art of deception and intrigue...Always fight with words and ideas before closing if indeed you have to...seems to have worked.

Still his job to fight...But he was obviously thinking of his crew and what he thought was a suicidal fight.

He bottled it...plain and simple...that doesnt mean cowardice...it means pressure and I give him a lot of understanding...yes he should and it was his duty to sail and fight...but I take nothing away from the British victory here, which was based on intigue and deception. Something we used to be quite good at.

Langsdorf was a commander of a major fleet unit, and as such is not allowed PTSD.

His exec...he didnt know what was out there either...only would have had the information his commander had...and he probably sighed a big sigh of relief himself when Langsdorf made the decision he did...

 

No she doesn't have the advantage of surprise. When she leaves port the British diplomats will radio ahead to the ships waiting outside. Note that the British were able to control to some extent when the GS left due to regulations about the timing of when she could leave in regards to other ships.

I don't think I understand what you are saying here. The British would be moving even without GS firing.

The British ships also have torpdos and she will have been in range of their guns for a considerable period of time before she gets into torpedo range.

How is she going to leave them behind when she's slower than the British ships? No reason they have to allow her to sihloett them.

And what happens when/if she gets there?

He needed port repairs to make it home. This worked well for the Goeben in WWI. Why was he wrong here?

GS was a long way from a BC. This class was rerated heavy cruisers from armored cruisers somewhat latter. A farily apt designation IMO.

You also said that she could get water in 72 hours. Where and would it be enough?

And you mentioned her outranging her opponents. While the 11 guns did have a range advantage p(H) at those ranges was pretty low. Furthermore GS had sustaind damage to her fire control systems and was low on ammo. Engaging in a long range battle would likely have left her out of ammo without incapacitating more than one of her foes if that.

 

Concur.

Realistically, the GS had incurred serious damage and was not really battleworthy. The damaged FC system, combined with her very low ammo status made it unlikely that GS would be likely to inflict enough damage on Force H to allow her to shake her pursuers. She had had her galleys destroyed and her fresh water evaporators damaged, so feeding the crew and supplying drinking water was going to be a big problem. In addition, the British were gathering additional ships to pit against her. All Force H had to do was maintain contact until these new ships arrived.

All of this meant that there was little hope of escaping, or being able to return to Germany, so what was the point of sacrificing the crew for the sake of "tradition"?

 

Hey guys this thread brings up an issue I'm debating elsewhere and one which I've started a thread on this forum about under the heading "The Hague Convention of 1907" . So just what was the Montivideo government required to provide the Graf Spree?Fuel? Food? Did they even have to allow the ship to enter their port? Assuming they're strong enough to do anything about it. I've seen it debated that they would be required to refuel the ship if they were a signatory to that certain Hague Convention. below is the link to the debate taking place . The issue I'm asking about is just one small part of another much bigger debate .

http://warships1discussionboards.yuku.com/topic/9025

 

Graf Spee is a warship....not a coal hauler......you fight!
Its the beginning of the war as I mentioned,.....it matters to moral.

I'm sure the Spartan 300 sacrifice inspired the Greeks to resist and push away the Persians.

The question was posed about a possible break out.
I personally do not have the time to waste on forums which flame people
who offer participation on a hypothetical topic.

as Long as Graf Spee could move....
She could break out...
and sure....she's gonna get hit,
but she does have firepower,........and fortune does favor the bold
many battles.....many desperate battles were fought against greater odds.

Who says The British will be so successful stopping her,
3 ships had failed to sink her,....and now they are damaged,
what says Graf Spee does not clobber the bridge of the command ship and damage another British ship leaving them with 2 distinct problems
[One British ship allready had 2 rear turrets offline if I recall]

Its likely they Break off in such condition.....yes...they break off

This is why Graf Spee can escape.
If you lose....you lose in Battle,
and you do not give the enemy a Trophy pic like the above posted.

as for moral question,
I would expect my Commanders to fight ....
fight....and then make the surrender/capitulation call as the battle unfolds.

Those plucky tin cans and De's from Taffy 3 which fought against greater odds,
some of them had turrets out of action,
fired all the torpedo's they could,.....operated with bridge command nearly annihilated from damage taken.

all of a sudden its heroic when you fight and have a few ships survive,
Americans are damn proud of those commanders and brave men.

Germany has only shame....the pictures prove that.
So what if Graf Spee gets sunk,

There's 3 British warships out there to damage and sink......make the enemy pay,.....make it count,.....attrition of assets is what you want to
do to the enemy in war.

 

You fight if you think you can acomplish something by doing so. Low on ammo and fuel with a damaged fire control system and expecting to meet a force that included a British BC GS could expect to acomplish little. The pictures of the British curisers beating up on her might well have been worse for moral than her scuttling.

But that's a considerably different situation. The Spartans were fighting for time for most of the rest of the Greek force to escape.

Yes it was. Who's flamed you for participating?

No. At least not if you mean she could have escaped the British.

Sure when there was a reason to.
[/quote]
Who says The British will be so successful stopping her,
3 ships had failed to sink her,....and now they are damaged,
what says Graf Spee does not clobber the bridge of the command ship and damage another British ship leaving them with 2 distinct problems
[One British ship allready had 2 rear turrets offline if I recall]
[/quote]
Ajax did have her 2 reaar turrets disabled but it's not clear when they came back on line. At HMS Ajax, British light cruiser, WW2 they mention that it was more than a month after the battle before she was detached back to the UK for yard work. According to http://www.bobhenneman.info/bhbrp.htm Ajax and Achillies were both low on ammo of course the Germans wouldn't have known this. And Cumberland was undamaged with a full load of ammon and had more guns than Exeter. Furthermore on the 13 Ark Royal, Renown, and Neptune were 1,000 miles away. At 25 knots they could cover that in a couple of days. At 20 knots your only looking at a bit over 2 days. When GS left on the 17th they had to be getting pretty close. Oh and Spee had fired at least one set of torpedose alread so she only had 4 left unless she carried reloads and provided she hadn't used any ealier in her cruise.

No it's not likely they will have to break off. Spee isn't going to be able to take all three out of action and what's left will shadow here even if they are out of ammo. With Ark Royal, Renown, and Neptune closing from the North and Dorsetshire and Shropshire closing from the South East Spee was doomed.

No that's why Spee couldn't escape. Even if she could shake her shadowers she didn't have the supplies to make it back to a friendly port.

1) They had little choice
2) They were like the 300 trying to allow their friends to escape. Note that the CVE's didn't charge the Japanese warships.

Not in my book

If you can make it worth the cost yes. It's far from clear GS could have and based on what the Germans knew they had even less reason to believe that it was possible.

 

First off...a coment on Graf Spee from the web:
As far as the Pocket battleship goes, the only problen was that there were not enough of them. During the first 2 years of the war, the British had a very hard time with surface raiders. Not only the pocket battleships, but the Sharnhorst and Gniesenau were very effective during 2 separate raiding sorties in 1939-1940. The RN and the French had over 50 units searching for the Graf SPee. Even a couple of German merchant ships-turned raiders scored impressively.

Staying alive as a commerce raider = the above,

Graf Spee can move.....thus...she continues to be a going concern,
and should she break the line to escape,
more so!,
Altmarks out there........possibly other ships to refuel and resupply her.

In the endeavor to sink her,.....she could create more attrition loss to the
British Navy.
Thats her job as a warship......even though her munition supply is low,
she does have an advantage of gunnery range over the British.

Did those 9 merchant ships which Langsdorff sunk have a chance?
well.....?
If I'm sending a capital warship out to sea with powerfull guns...to sink
helpless merchant shipping,
what am I to think of the outcome when my ships captain takes my property and scuttles it in a peacefull situation,.....not in battle,

and then blow his brains out in a hotel room?

Graf Spee's cost to build....vs 9 Merchant ships sunk.
No....I'm definitely not getting my moneys worth in that exchange.

 

unfortunately there are situations where you dont get your moneys worth out of the exchange... like take those japanese super battleships, the Musashi and the Yamato, they were never really involved in any real major surface action... i mean the Yamato was during the engagement with Taffy 3, but none of her shots were all that effective... you can't always expect to get your money's worth out of everything that you create, thats just the way war was... and i agree with everybody else about the fate of GS... no matter what, it was doomed, and i think that the captain was thinking on a level of "why condem the rest of your comrades to a fight that will surely end most of their lives" in that way, i think it was right for him to do what he did... those are just my thoughts on the whole situation

 

Perhaps and perhaps not. If there had been more of them Britain may have built more ships to hunt them down. There's also the fact that the more of them are at sea the more likely they are to encounter British units.

Even! The merchant raiders outscored the regular warships by a considerable margin.

In the highly unlikely event she did manage to break contact how much fule did Altmark have? how much ammo? Fire control components?

A marginal advantage which she can't make much use of.

Well given the situation the best bet was for the Germans to arrange a fire sale. Argentina might have taken her and then you at least get some return. If Hitler was that upset about things then he should have ordered Spee to engage the British but I don't remember reading that he did. Again photo's of British ships pummeling a helpless Spee wouldn't have done much for German moral now would they.

 

Returning to the original thread topic.....Was it possible for the Graf Spee to break out

Without getting all super technical,....I believe I forwarded reasonable hypothesis.
and sited why you do so....[ie....the Trophy image posted above]
I read in a post on the net
quote: The damage done to the Graf Spee during the Battle of the River Plate did not appear to be great. Even those on board, according to the ship’s records, were surprised at Langsdorff’s decision to sail to the neutral harbour in Uruguay. The British naval attaché in Montevideo, Henry McCall, and an Intelligence officer, Captain Rex Miller, got into a boat and sailed around the pocket battleship. They both saw little wrong with the ship’s structure and the crew seemed to be working normally as if nothing was wrong. Both British naval officers assumed that the engines were in working order as the ship had sailed at speed to Montevideo to escape the Ajax and Achilles

also..

However, a ship like the Graf Spee would easily catch up with any merchant ship even with a 24 hours start. McCall and Miller even contemplated some sort of sabotage to the Graf Spee's rudder (“the means were available”) but decided against it as a great deal of the world’s media was reporting what was happening. Any negative press release would have been damaging to the Royal Navy and would give the Germans an excellent propaganda opportunity.[excerpt end -The Graf Spee in Montevideo]

now then,...after studying Graf Spee's actual damage on the net,
and the Royal Navy group of 3 ships,

I* conclude that Graf Spee is capable of combat.....even with 70% or less of her main 11inch armament spent,
she is recorded as having some 43% of ammunition available.....so ..the 5.9 inchers can contribute,....allong with Torpedo's.

In my view.....If Graf Spee can navigate out without getting stuck on a sandbar...she has a good chance of breaking the line and running for Africa.
As mentioned in my earlier posts,
The idea is to breakout and run,
We have Altmark out there....and if I'm correct,...a picture of Tacoma pulling into Uruguay while GS is there.

so...thats 2 possible support ships for GS.

from the data pull on Royal navy ships,....they are wounded,
a few lucky hits or well placed salvo's could easily knock them offline...
offline as to enable GS to run,
as they are reasonably going to have to tend to their condition,
and possibly have to take on survivors should a sinking occur or abandon ship.

I disagree that the situation was hopeless and that GS was doomed,
rather....the RN was crippled and Langsdorff should have noticed this,
allong with the political push and deception by the British,
he should have been bold....the signs indicated the British were the ones in the
non confidence postion.

If Graf Spee's engines were non functional,
if her main 11 inch turrets had no power,

then yes....its over.

 

And if the British simply choose to shadow Graf Spee until more of their fleet arrives then what? The Graf Spee doesn't have the speed to out run either light cruiser or run them down for a gunfight.

 

Ok just to make sure we're on the same wave length. Break out means to leave harbor and escape the British force outside the harbor. Correct?

If so may I quote: http://www.bobhenneman.info/bhbrp.htm

So in the words of the officer on the scene he didn't think it was possible.

None have said she was not capable of combat but there is some question of how effective she could have been. Certainly with a limited supply of ammo and fire control damage she was not likely to be able to disable 3 British ships when she hadn't the first time.

Any idea how many torpedoes she had left? Note to use them she must close and render herself vulnerable to the more numerous torpedoes of the British.

I hadn't read that anyone expected her to run onto a sandbar. On the other hand making Africa is a bit more.

Which doesn't do any good if she can't break contact with the British.

2 of the 3 are damaged. But it's going to take an awfully lucky hit to remove them from combat and Spee needs to take out all three.

The most seriously damage of the three ships waiting for him wasn't sent back to Britain for more than a month after the battle. While Exeter was in bad shape she wasn't there any more. For him to get away he can't just set back at range either. The need to disable 3 ships means that he has to close and risk being disabled or torpedoed himself. Then there's Ark Royal and Renown now known to be only 2 days away and capable of running him down. Especially if he is slowed and can't shake the British cruisers.

 

Just a section from the University of Wellingtons website on the state of GS on her making for M v d o.

Yet, according to the German account of the action, the Admiral Graf Spee had sustained only two 8-inch and eighteen 6-inch hits. One officer and thirty-five ratings had been killed and sixty wounded. ‘The fighting value of the ship had not been destroyed,’ the report ran. The main armament was ‘fully effective’, but there remained only 306 rounds of 11-inch ammunition, representing 40 per cent of the original supply. ‘The survey of damage showed that all galleys were out of action, with the exception of the admiral's galley. The possibility of repairing them with the ship's own resources was doubtful. Penetration of water into the flour store made the continued supply of bread questionable, while hits in the fore part of the ship rendered her unseaworthy for the North Atlantic winter. One shell had penetrated the armour belt and the armoured deck had been torn open in one place. There was also damage in the after part of the ship…. The ship's resources were considered inadequate for making her seaworthy …’ and ‘there seemed no prospect of shaking off the shadowers.’ Captain Langsdorf therefore decided to make for Montevideo. He signalled his intentions to Berlin and received from Admiral Raeder the reply: ‘Your intentions understood’.