Were the Nazis Christians?

I know anti-communism was probably the more fundamental Nazi ideology, and Christians saw Hitler as their salvation. I also know the Catholics aided the Nazis, even turning in Jews to the Nazis. The Iron Cross is a important Christian/Catholic symbol, and they wore it on their uniforms. Or was it more honoring their heritage?

 

You need to read something like the Great Bruce Quarrie's books on the SS which have chapters on the sort of folk who joined.

It is a bit of an odd point though: technically the majority of the British population were nominally Christians but that does not mean the major political groups were all 'Christian' parties or that there was any religious angle involved in the politics of the War. Vast numbers of the British and Commonwealth Armies were certainly not Christian but it was hardly a relevant point when the wolf was at the door.

 

I'm not sure German Christians did necessarily see Hitler as their salvation in line with their faith. He did ban both the cross and crucifix from governmental buildings as well as the clergy eventually. He criticized the Catholic church in "Mein Kampf", appointed Rosenburg as "Party Philosopher" who was opposed to the Christian faith, encouraged the SS to be anti-christian to the point of developing their own neo-pagan services for weddings and baptisms, and was quite happy to encourage the HJ to sing songs like:
We follow not Christ, but Horst Wessel,
Away with incense and Holy Water,
The Church can go hang for all we care,
The Swastika brings salvation on Earth.

He was a shrewd political beast though, and realised that to gather support amongst a generally christian population it would be wiser not to make too big a deal of his thoughts on their faith.

I have found increasingly over the years there's a fair amount of revisionism over this subject often, but not always, driven by aetheists. Their formula is simple "Hitler was a Christian, Hitler did bad things, therefore Christianity is a bad thing.". I've also heard the same concerning vegetarianism. I find both misguided at best.

cheers,

 

I think you have to remember that Nazism was idelogically bankrupt, it was so pragmatic that on topics like religion there was no real concensus. Sure the Christian church was tolerated to some extent, Bohrmann himself argued that the two ideologies (nazism and christianity) were irreconcilable. That said, there was a 'third way' in the form of the Reich Church, not to forget the mysticim and supernatural nonsence tied in with vage pagan beliefs that some Nazies went for. Then again what does it say on Heer belt buckles? Gott mit uns!

So to summarise, Nazi religious beliefs were a mess.

 

I think the nazi ideology was that you´d leave the church ( not only for the SS ) but I think in real life this did not happen as much as "expected".

 

Well again, how are we defining Nazi ideology? What Hitler thought? Not sure I know what he believed in, after all he would be pretty pally with the church one moment and then equally close with the Thule mob the next. On the other side, the occultists were a total mess, little continuity and all kinds of mumbo-jumbo cherrypicked from (often badly researched) pagan beliefs. I'm really not sure that Nazism had any specific religion though I agree with Kai that (much like communism) the idea was that eventually Nazism would take the place of religion.

 

Will I think they thought that the Fascism ideology would take the place of any other political thought, but that doesn't really put a definite word on what religion they believed in or not believed in. I thought Hitler was a antheist? I don't recall where he said everyone should be a antheist though. I think as long as you completely agreed with his views on race/Nazi ideology you were fine. Say if you were a Christian/Catholic and you thought Hitler was a nut you would put in a concentration camp for sure but if you agreed with him I think they would leave you alone. All true communists I know were antheists and during the Soviet rule they didn't allow the practice of religion although I don't think that was the case with Fascism, I believe Fascism is very similar to Democracy, economic wise its the same except Fascism it's government run/controlled and of course there are no elections with Fascism, other than that their very similar. No surprise we supported the Nazis before the outbreak of World War II, and even hoped they would defeat the communists for us.

 

Ahh but you see it is easy enough to argue that Fascism was presented as a religion in and of itself. It could provide moral guidance, a description of how to live your life, a leader and a plethora of other hallmarks of religion.

Not really true, the Russian orthodox church continued under Stalin and after the war was (I believe) give even more freedom. Then again, the Soviet Union was never truly communist.

Economically facism and democracy are similar EXCEPT under fascism the economy was controlled by the government, I would describe that as a fairly massive difference, though it's also not totally true.

Define 'supported,' I don't think the west 'supported' the axis so much as avoided fighting them.

 

we let their zeppelins fly around New York and other cities with huge swastika banners on them.

 

Pact, that's not the same as supporting. Keep in mind the Swastika didn't then have the connotations it does now (a certain US army, I think Texan, unit used it as their badge). Just because you continue to peacefully coexist with a people doesn't mean you support them.

Got Kershaw on your side too there so I'm not going to argue.

 

Thats the badger! Cheers Jeff.

 

I didn't mean we were on their side, I said we supported their position in removing/anti-communism ideals.

 

Who's "we"? The American media were huge fans of Stalin and of Soviet Communism. And the American government? If they supported Hitler's anti-Communism, then why did they aid the Soviet Union when Hitler invaded?

What you're saying makes no sense.

So, other than economics and free elections, democracy and fascism are very similar? That's like saying that except for skin color, sex, occupation and political viewpoints, Toby Keith and Whoopi Goldberg are very similar.

And the notion that "Catholics aided the Nazis" has been debunked well and long enough that I won't even get into it.

[edit: Almost forgot one -

"The Iron Cross is a important Christian/Catholic symbol, and they wore it on their uniforms."

The Americans and the Russians used stars for insignia. Didn't make them astrologers.]

 

the Soviet Union only allied with us because they knew their asse* were getting kicked, come on everyone knows this. We only allied because we had a common enemy, what followed after World War 2 children? Cold War anyone? The Iron Cross plays a more important role more than you might think.




Iron Cross.

• Originally created in 1813 by King Fredrick III during Prussia's period of 'blood and iron' - their struggle for survival against Napoleon.
• It was intended to replace other traditional awards during times of war, such as the Order of the Red Eagle or the Pour le Mèrite(known as the Blue Max during WW1).
  • In practice, all other medals were issued as well as the Iron Cross.
  • All 1813 medals had the upper central letters "FW" for Frederick III (Friedrich Wilhelm)
• The Iron Cross was re-issued during the Franco-Prussian war (1870-71).
  • All 1870/71 medals have the central letter "W" for Wilhelm I
• It was revived for the 1914-18 war
  • all 1914/18 medals have the central letter "W" for Wilhelm II
• Hitler (who had been awarded the Iron Cross 2nd Class in WW1) reintroduced it in WW2
  • All 1939/45 medals have the swastika in the central position.
• In 1957 the banned "nazi" Iron Crosses were re-issued in a de-nazified version.

History of the Iron Cross

 

Right, sorry, you clary missed the entire history of the war in the east. Well done.

The simple fact is that there is a difference between 'tolerating' Nazi Germany in the vague hope that they will hold back another percieved threat and actively supporting them, to support implies aid and assistance which we did not give the Nazies, not least because Germany and Russia were actually allies for a while.

[/quote]

Yes, but the fact that the German army used a traditional German award with a lot of history behind it doesn't mean the Nazies were Christian. The Iron Cross was iconic, it was a part of the Heer in much the same way the MC is over here. An attempt to replace it with something more 'Nazi' would hardly do.

 

Unfortunately this could not be further from the truth. Harry Hopkins, ( closest aid to Roosevelt ) visited Stalin on more then one occasion at the onset of Barbarossa and doubted Germany's ability to defeat Russia even before the battle of Mosocw. He shared many similiar views with Stalin on Germany and was actually quite fond of him and relayed his information to Roosevelt. For this he was not like by some in the administration as not all shared his view. Roosevelt however did. Roosevelt always considered Stalin someone he could work with and even tame.

This was noth the case with Hitler. Nor am I familiar with any branch of the U.S. Government openly supporting the 3rd Reich and its cause. While there were many sympathizers and even rallies before the war ( due to a high German population ) this was not Govt. endorsed?