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Were the Nazis Christians?

Discussion in 'Information Requests' started by PactOfSteel, Jan 18, 2008.

  1. Sloniksp

    Sloniksp Ставка

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    :rofl: This is bloody hysterical!!!

    Positive rep awarded sir!

    Not eveyone, only the misinformed.... ;)

    Your personal opinion is in contradition with one of Germany's top brass... Gothard Heinrici. He has pointed out why Barbarossa had failed even before the battle of Moscow. Have you even read his reasons which I had posted?

    Yes, the Germans made remarkable progress in the first 6 months. However everything started to slowly unravel from then on. ;)
     
  2. Kai-Petri

    Kai-Petri Kenraali

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    I´d also like to think that wherever a country is boosting its manufacture of vehicles, guns etc like Hitler did there will always be several countries looking for a chance to make money. I believe US was there among others. Instead I think the USSR was not open to such markets and actually at one point nationalised several sectors in the 1920´s so no wonder people would not be willing to invest foreign currency in the USSR unlike Germany.

    Besides the USSR was on the same political level as Germany after Aug 1939 due to the pact.
     
  3. Skipper

    Skipper Kommodore

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    With the SS "Gott mit uns" became "Mit uns" This was the inscription on their belt buckes.
    their Promised land was thieir Lebensraum and their doctrine was to replace Religion. They however forgot the part about showing the other cheek. Eventually they got their "Swasstikasses" kicked.
     
  4. Stefan

    Stefan Cavalry Rupert

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    Skipper, sorry to correct you but SS belt buckles bore the legend 'mein ehre heist treue' or 'my honour is loyalty' as here:

    [​IMG]
     
  5. schizuki

    schizuki Member

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    So let me see if I can follow your reasoning here -

    1930s: America opposes Soviet Union, at least tacitly supports Nazis because of Nazi opposition to Communism. All while German and Soviet military officers are training together in Russia. And signing treaties with each other. And invading Poland together.

    1941: Hitler attacks Russia. United States responds to this attack on its "enemy" by ... sending Lend-Lease aid to Russia. Because, you say, "We only allied because we had a common enemy." Yet your entire point is that the Soviet Union was our "enemy" and that "we supported the Nazis before the outbreak of World War II, and even hoped they would defeat the communists for us." I'm no geo-political expert, but Lend-Lease to Russia seems rather counter-productive to our desire to see Communism defeated at the hands of the Nazis.

    Again, both your reasoning and your chronology make no sense.

    And your short history of the Iron Cross is utterly irrelevant to your question of whether it infers some sort of Nazi/Christian link.
     
  6. schizuki

    schizuki Member

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    Yep. "Gott mit uns", IIRC, was on Wehrmacht buckles, and pre-dates the Nazis by well over a hundred years.
     
  7. Skipper

    Skipper Kommodore

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    My Mistake Stefan. So where did I see the" Mitt uns" (without Gott) inscription? was it Wehrmacht then ?
     
  8. Skipper

    Skipper Kommodore

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    Thanks for the confirmtion Schizuki but the buckle I mentionned did only have two words "mit uns" without the first word "Gott" that had been used for decades.
    it was maybe an abandonned or unofficial project.
     
  9. Erich

    Erich Alte Hase

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    so are we talking the national socialist demo party- Nazi's or the Heer ? there is a difference
     
  10. Skipper

    Skipper Kommodore

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    Found it Erich! I have found a picture of the "Mit Uns" inscription on an enamel plate that used to be put on the houses of party members. So we are talking about Nazi party members. if I find another example of this "Godless" use of the old inscription I will post it for you.

    [​IMG]
     
  11. Stefan

    Stefan Cavalry Rupert

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    Erich, I think we are using Nazis in this sense to mean 'followers of Nazi doctrine and ideology,' the problem is that it's pretty difficult to pin down Nazi doctrine and ideology to any real specifics.
     
  12. Kai-Petri

    Kai-Petri Kenraali

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    In the movie Stalingrad just before entering the city the priest says that " God is on our side". I always wondered who´s side God is on if both claim the same...
     
  13. Stefan

    Stefan Cavalry Rupert

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    "If god be for us, who could be against us?"

    Romans 8:31-39

    It does make you think though
     
  14. Herr Oberst

    Herr Oberst Member

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    Sort of like global Warming today.:rolleyes:


    Well you can make an argument that it was a dictatorship, but since the cornerstone or Communism and Liberalism for that matter, is the dictatorship of the proletariot, then I find it hard to give credibility to your statement that it wasn't truly communist.

    Wasn't the Five year Plan the brainchild of Stalin who was the government?
    And in Germany the Nazis allowed the War materials Industry to make their profits and later infiltrated that industry to try and create their own, SS run with camp labor.

    The Germans, Nazis were Christian, not all of them, many agnostic, many renounced their religion for favor in the SS, many practised in secret. Bavaria was predominantly Catholic. Parts of the North, Protestant, Lutheran.

    If you ask if they acted as good Christians my answer would be no.

    Yet the Godless communist ideal worked pretty well when motivating men under arms.
     
  15. Kai-Petri

    Kai-Petri Kenraali

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    Stalin knew how to motivate in all ways: Mother Russia, religion....

    Joseph Stalin - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

    During World War II, the Church was allowed a revival as a patriotic organization, after the NKVD had recruited the new metropolitan, the first after the revolution, as a secret agent. Thousands of parishes were reactivated until a further round of suppression in Khrushchev's time.
     
  16. Herr Oberst

    Herr Oberst Member

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    Good post, shows that both Communism and Nazism used Christianity for their own desires. Churches in Russia were opened when Moscow was under threat of being overrun. Heers units had Chaplins, not sure of the SS.
     
  17. Stefan

    Stefan Cavalry Rupert

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    Or indeed the 'war on terror' eh? ;)

    Think about certain basic elements of communism, equality (people in the soviet union were by no means equal, those with power used it to gather wealth and lived a better quality of life than the workers), worker control of the means of production (the workers of the soviet union had very little of this), the ability to be accomplished in whatever sphere you choose and apply yourself to (again, this was never the case in Soviet Russia). There are so many ways in which Soviet Russia failed to achieve a truly 'communist' state, hell, as you pointed out they had a dictator, it wasn't a dictatorship of the prolitariat (an autocratic system where the working class have absolute power) but a despotism. Not a communist idea at all, the theories and principles were abused by those in power.

    Sorry HO, didn't make myself clear enough, POS stated that economically Nazism and Democracy were similar EXCEPT that under the Nazis the economy was state controlled. I simply pointed out that a) that is a pretty massive difference and b) isn't totally true because as you say the level of state control over industry in Nazi Germany was limited in many ways.

    I think though that is more to do with the historical motivations of Russian soldiers and the different kind of patriotism you encounter rather than religious issues.
     
  18. Herr Oberst

    Herr Oberst Member

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    I guess you don't mind your London subways being bombed and don't remember the dead horses and people in the streets from the IRA.:rolleyes:

    For that matter the bastards that were caught recently, weren't they doctors or med students planning something new?


    Too bad I don't have the ability to put a sound byte of a record scratch here.

    There is no equality in communism.....It is the dictatorship of the worker by a select few. All workers are treated equally bad(exploited) and if they don't like it they are all equally put in gulags. That is defacto communism, if you actually buy that crap Lennin and Marx wrote, then I have a bridge in New York for sale, real cheap, you can send me a check.

    Don't say your sorry(Band of Brothers, some brief levity):D

    Well, I think after awhile it is simply the motivation for survival on both sides of the front.
     
  19. Stefan

    Stefan Cavalry Rupert

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    Sorry, whilst the threat is real the method by which is dealt with is more to do with controlling the population than their safety. I do remember the bombs on the underground, I was sitting reading the reports that reached the civil authorities before they made it to the news, worrying about friends I knew to be there, but frankly none of that tallys with the political endevors of those propogating the WOT, but that's for another thread eh?

    And here you demonstrate what you have missed, all that 'crap' Lenin and Marx wrote was the theory of what a communist state would be, any state that doesn't achieve that is therefore by definition not communist, exploitation of the workers is by definition the opposite of communism. Communism is a theory, a state that is not drawn up along the lines defined by the theory is no more communist than Nazi Germany was a democracy!

    I prefer Nathan Brittles point of view, even if it is at odds with my British upbringing (a people who apoloise for everything, regardless of who is at fault).

    True enough, but I think you may have to meet a few Russian vets to understand where they were coming from.
     
    SS-Hauptsturmfuhrer likes this.
  20. schizuki

    schizuki Member

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    Websters defines fascism as "a political philosophy, movement, or regime that exalts nation and often race above the individual and that stands for a centralized autocratic government headed by a dictatorial leader, severe economic and social regimentation, and forcible suppression of opposition." In practice, it was a political philosophy, movement, or regime that exalted nation and often race above the individual and that stood for a centralized autocratic government headed by a dictatorial leader, severe economic and social regimentation, and forcible suppression of opposition.

    Websters defines Communism as "a doctrine based on revolutionary Marxian socialism and Marxism-Leninism." In practice, it is, and was, and ever shall be --- a political philosophy, movement, or regime that exalts the collective above the individual and that stands for a centralized autocratic government headed by a dictatorial leader, severe economic and social regimentation, and forcible suppression of opposition.

    They are birds of a feather, and completely different animals from Western liberal democracy.
     

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