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Western Aid to Russia during the war

Discussion in 'WWII General' started by mikegb, Nov 13, 2008.

  1. mikegb

    mikegb Member

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    I was just reading Alexander Werths Russia at war an old sixties book he states a number of figures on supplies sent

    Page 567 Alexander Werth Russia at War 1965 (Barrie books Pan 1965)




    Supplies Shipped to Russia June 22 1941- April 30 1944 From USA


    6,430 planes
    3,734 tanks
    10 mine sweepers
    82 smaller boats
    210,000 automobiles
    3,000 anti aircraft guns
    1,111 oerlikon guns
    17,0000 motor bikes
    991 million cartridges
    1.2 million Km telephone cable
    245,000 military telephones
    257 million oil refinery,electrical equipment
    5.2 million boots
    2 million tons of food


    Shipped to Russia June 22 1941 to April 30th 1944 From UK


    5,800 Planes
    4,292 Tanks
    12 minesweepers
    103,000 tons rubber
    6,000 machine tools

    Shipped from Canada
    1188 Tanks
    842 Armoured cars
    One million shells
    36,000 tons Aluminium
    208,000 tons grain


    Quotes the most critical supplies from the west between 1941 and 1945 as being the following


    427,000 trucks
    13,000 combat vehicles
    2000 ordinance vehicles
    35,000 motor bikes
    Petroleum products 2,670,000 tons
    Food 4,478,000 tons food

    These figures seem low the Canadian figure seems odd since I read elsewhere that 2000 valentines alone were shipped from Canada. Can anyone suggest other sources on this subject area.
     
  2. brndirt1

    brndirt1 Saddle Tramp

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    I don't have my totals for the aid to the USSR from those other than the US at hand (I'll look for them), but here is a superior list of US aid.

    The thing that is amazing about this list, is that when the USSR applied for loans with and through the IMF, they had to clear these old debts with the US under our still valid debt collection bills. When they read this list from Major Jordan, they agreed since it tallied with their own list. They kept excellent records of "received" goods as they were responsible for all items received, and not paid for post war, or by the reverse Lend Lease portions, or destroyed during the war.

    Complete List of Lend Lease to Russia including atomic materials

    I will look for the UK and Commonwealth list while you peruse this lengthy one. After the war was winding down, some of the stuff sent got a bit silly, a pipe for Stalin, a supply of pipe tobacco, amusement park rides, ladies cosmetics, nylons, vacuum cleaners, carpets, ect..
     
  3. ozjohn39

    ozjohn39 Member

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    Clint,

    I have had this link in my 'Favourites' for a long time and every so often I refer to it.

    I agree it is simply amazing, and i wonder where he got all the information from, in particular the 'Atomic Materials' stuff.

    WHY did they send that stuff??? Was it requested? What reason did they give?

    I think a lot of the unusual things you list probably went directly to the favoured members of the party after the politbureau had taken what they wanted for their own personal use.

    I was unaware that the Russians had actually verified and accepted the accuracy of the list.

    I presume from your post that all USSR/Russian war debts have been paid in full. I was under the false impression that they were not.


    John.
     
  4. JCFalkenbergIII

    JCFalkenbergIII Expert

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  5. brndirt1

    brndirt1 Saddle Tramp

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    From what I have been able to gather, most if not all of the "atomic" or nuclear stuff was related to the medical field, not the weapons field. (I could be wrong)

    "I was unaware that the Russians had actually verified and accepted the accuracy of the list."

    While the U.S. Government has never released detailed reports on what was sent in Lend-Lease, so Major Jordan's data, gleaned from the Russians' own manifests (emphasis mine), is the only public record. And in order to qualify for the loans they received they (USSR) had to acknowledge these records. Major Jordon was the liason officer with the Soviets concerning Lend/Lease.

    "I presume from your post that all USSR/Russian war debts have been paid in full. I was under the false impression that they were not."

    The effort is ongoing I think, I do recall that the Russian government asked to delay (not cancel) payment of about $155 million in 2000.

    See:

    CRS Report: RS20636 - Russia's Paris Club Debt: U.S. Interests - NLE

    The Lend/Lease material was kept close track of by the Soviets, since the terms of the agreement meant they were required to pay for, or return anything NOT destroyed by the war itself. This was received material, not shipped material. Truman demanded that the Soviets repay the U.S. for the non-military supplies, including cargo ships, worth more than $2.5 billion of the $11 billion total, "writing off" the other nearly $9 billion and taking into consideration the value of reverse lend/lease material the Soviets supplied us (rare earths, bauxite, ect.).

    When the Cold War erupted, it effectively ended any such hopes of repayment. Through an agreement negotiated by Henry Kissinger, the Soviets agreed to pay back $722 million of the $2 billion remaining after the Truman largess. In 1975, after paying back $32 million, they announced they were not going to pay the remainder of the Lend-Lease debt.

    This was how things remained until finally thawing in the late 1980s with the outbreak of "glasnost". In June of 1990, to qualify for U.S. loans and IMF credits under the still active Johnson Debt-Default Act, the USSR negotiated an agreement for repayment of her remaining WW2, non-military material L/L war debts. One year later the Soviet Union ceased to exist, but the CIS did honor the commitment for and assume the responsibility for the repayment. The latest stuff I have is that from 2000 (see above), eight years ago.

    As per the British contribution to Lend/Lease for the USSR, I have found this; "It was decided at the Moscow Conference - First Protocol to send 200 aircraft a month between October 1941 and June 1942. These consisted mainly of Hurricanes, but also Tomahawk IIB's and P39 Airacobra. (Later the Russians were to receive over 1000 Spitfires but did not actually like them in the end). The Russians also received supplies of guns, tanks, clothing, rubber, engines, trains - anything used in wartime.


    "Hurricanes were to be the largest aircraft consignment of aircraft from the UK, put at around 3,000 Hurricanes of different marks. At this point, it was noted that there was no point sending hundreds of aircraft, Hurricanes especially, without showing the Russians how to unpack, assemble, operate and maintain Hurricanes with their relatively sensitive Rolls-Royce Merlin engines. During July 1941 it was decided to send a party to Russia to help with these problems, and Force 'Benedict' was established."

    From:

    RAF Hurricanes in Russia

    BTW, The final payment ($83 million) from Britain to the USA for its Lend/Lease debt was made on December 31st, 2006.
     
  6. ozjohn39

    ozjohn39 Member

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    Clint,

    I have done some snooping on Major Jordan's data and claims, all of which seems to be acceptable though amazing, and the only real question I am left with is why such a 'Junior' Officer was in charge of such a major project? I would have thought a General Officer, plus some sort of Committee would have over-seen such transactions.

    He seems almost a 'conspiracy theorist', especially against the US wartime Administration, though again I am not disputing his claims or data. His claims regarding deliberate provision of nuclear information goes against all that I know of the 'Manhattan Project'.

    Your view?


    John.
     
  7. JCFalkenbergIII

    JCFalkenbergIII Expert

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  8. Za Rodinu

    Za Rodinu Aquila non capit muscas

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    There is also:

    Engines of the Red Army in WW2 - Routes Overview ; Engines of the Red Army in WW2 - Numbers ; Engines of the Red Army in WW2 - Sources

    To be quite frank I have found Maj. Jordan's book in one or two websites of the skin creeping ilk, not that I distrust the data reliability but the use made thereof is unpleasant.

    Even in the site quoted in post #2 at the end it says:
    I though Sen. Joe McCarthy had been dead for a while...

    What credibility does this guarantee? :rolleyes:
     
  9. ozjohn39

    ozjohn39 Member

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    ZA,

    I have had a browse at the maps of the various routes for Lend-Lease Aid and am particularly interested to see the Pacific Route.

    I have always thought that about 100% of the stuff went to Vladivostok, (in Russian flaged ships) but find that Magadan was one of the destinations.

    As far as I know Magadan has never had a railway to the West, and her road system outside the city gets worse every mile you go. I can only assume that the consignments to Magadan may have been fully assembled aircraft that were then ferried all the way to Moscow etc, and straight into battle.

    Can you add anything to this theory?


    John.


    PS,

    Are you aware of whether the USSR provided any sea or air escort to the convoys hugging the coast on their way to Vladivostok via the north and south extremities of Sachalin Island?
     
  10. brndirt1

    brndirt1 Saddle Tramp

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    Major George Racey Jordan's diary (one of two books he wrote) has been used by many branches of political viewpoints. Most from the far right (as he was himself), the John Birch Society wasn't established until after the Jordan book was published, and "Tail-gunner" Joe was dead by then too. His (Jordan's) political position on the ultra conservative/anti-communist right may or may not have influenced his records, but for fun here is a link to his testimony before Congress. One of the questioners is none other than the then Honorable Senator Nixon; later VP under Eisenhower and well known Commie-hater/baiter.

    Goto:

    How Wars Are MADE: From Major Jordan's Diaries - Chapter 1


    and read each chapter. The fellow, even though only a Major when he started his tally, was a WW1 vet who had been called back to service in WW2.

    Another thing which stood out in that KGB claim against Harry Hopkins is this little problem; when it was supposedly made, the KGB didn't exist!

    The NKVD existed, but the KGB didn't show up until way later than that Madison Square Garden statement, and after Hopkins was out of office! Anybody can cut and paste Major Jordan's data to their own website, for whatever reason of their own.

    When looking over the 'nuclear' material I was struck by the type of material actually sent, thorium salts (not used in the atomic bombs) cobat (used in medical diagnostics, not the bomb), and even the uranium is the oxides and salts, not the enriched U-235 used in the bombs themselves. Then remember that when the Soviets finally did built one (1949) they didn't USE the uranium type, but the plutonium type. And the deuterium (heavy water) in that amount would be of no use at all as a moderator, in fact the US didn't use deuterium as the moderator for our own reactor for plutonium production until post WW2. And we got it from Canada's B.C. production facility. All of those shipments might just as easily have been "red herrings" as anything. The Russian nuclear scientists were not dolts by any stretch of the imagination, but by sending them (through Lend-Lease) material of no use would slow down rather than accelarate their research post-war. Of course when that was sent we didn't know of Ted Hall, Klaus Fuchs, Nunn-May, Greenglass, or the other nuclear spies.

    And as you yourself noticed, the USSR wasn't ever an ally of Japan, simply involved in a non-aggression pact with them. Sort of wary non-combatants, to the advantage of both parties for a great deal of the war period.
     
  11. ozjohn39

    ozjohn39 Member

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    Thanks Clint, great information.

    John.
     
  12. Devilsadvocate

    Devilsadvocate Ace

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    The Soviet bureaucracy responsible for state security, including border guards, administration of political prison camps, criminal detention facilities, purges of the military and other Soviet organizations, secret police, etc., was formed in 1917 as the NKVD. Over the years, the NKVD underwent numerous reorganizations, and changes of responsibility, as well as name changes. After the war, for example it became the MVD. The central executive branch of the NKVD/MVD was the GUGB and this body controlled all the administrative and operational functions of the State Security organization. In 1954, the MVD/GUGB, after the arrest of Beria (head of State Security up to that point), experienced yet another reorganization and was renamed KGB. Essentially, the KGB has existed since shortly after the start of the Bolshevik Revolution, albeit under a variety of different names.
     
  13. Za Rodinu

    Za Rodinu Aquila non capit muscas

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  14. brndirt1

    brndirt1 Saddle Tramp

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    Please DA, I was NOT saying that a Secret Police of the Soviet didn't exist. Only that it didn't exist under that title, and so must be attributed to some anti-Roosevelt faction who were attempting to paint Hopkins with a wide brush and lable him as pro-Communist.

    That was my point, that the quote was probably a fiction as the branch to which "they" attributed Hopkins as being a spy for, didn't yet exist.

    Sorry if that was an obtuse use of the language in any way.
     
  15. Devilsadvocate

    Devilsadvocate Ace

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    I'm sorry if you misunderstood my information. I realize the KGB didn't yet exist by that name when Hopkins was alive, but the organization that later was renamed KGB most certainly did exist.

    The point that the quote was a fiction because the KGB did not exist when Hopkins was supposedly a member, may, or may not, be valid. I think it would depend on when the author actually wrote the book in which the claim is made. If after 1954, the author might simply have used the current name of the Soviet security apparatus to avoid confusing his readers, who would probably not be aware of the convoluted nomenclature history of the organization. In all probability, Jordan realized that the NKVD was the proper name during WW II, because he dealt with the Soviets during that period and must certainly have been aware of their security organization's name.

    Personally, I don't think too much should be read into Jordan's use of the term KGB instead of NKVD.
     
  16. brndirt1

    brndirt1 Saddle Tramp

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    Agreed, the problem I see with that quote is that it is included in the Summary at the bottom of the page and in not attributed to anyone. However, the summary speaks of Major Jordan in the third person, which makes me suspect it was added by someone other than George R. Jordan himself;

    The U.S. Government has never released detailed reports on what was sent in Lend-Lease, so Major Jordan's
    (emphasis mine) data, gleaned from the Russians' own manifests, is the only public record. More than one-third of Lend-Lease sent was illegal under the terms of the act which specifically prohibited "goods furnished for relief and rehabilitation purposes."

    This makes me suspect that the entire Summary was added to, not included in Major Jordan's book.
     
  17. Devilsadvocate

    Devilsadvocate Ace

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    You could very well be correct. I have seen a number of books where the author mentions Harry Hopkins, and adds "....a known KGB agent..."or "...a Soviet agent..." almost as a throw-away line without bothering to verify his or her facts. It seems to be an article of faith among far right-wingers that Hopkins was unquestionably either an active NKVD/KGB agent, or at the very least, a "Soviet dupe". I think it's fair to say such a treatment appearing in any document throws the credibility of the author into serious doubt. Reputable historians would never make an accusation of that nature without citing some supporting evidence.
     
  18. Za Rodinu

    Za Rodinu Aquila non capit muscas

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    That is a tried and true recipe.

    “The most brilliant propagandist technique will yield no success unless one fundamental principle is borne in mind constantly - it must confine itself to a few points and repeat them over and over" - Joseph Goebbels

    "Make the lie big, make it simple, keep saying it, and eventually they will believe it” - Adolf Hitler

    "All propaganda has to be popular and has to accommodate itself to the comprehension of the least intelligent of those whom it seeks to reach.” - AH
     

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