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WHAT IF DDAY DIDNT HAPPEN

Discussion in 'What If - European Theater - Western Front & Atlan' started by rifleman1987, Mar 16, 2006.

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  1. rifleman1987

    rifleman1987 Member

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    HI WHAT IF DDAY NEVER HAPPENED AND THE INVASION OF SOUTH ITALY THOUGH NORTH AFRICA NEVER HAPPENED TOO AND IF GERMANY MADE A PEACE WITH BRITAIN AND USA BUT NOT RUSSIA WOULD GERAMANY THROWING EVERY THING AT RUSSIA IN SAY 1944 INCLUDING ALL THE DIVISONS ON THE WESTERN FRONT AND FROM ITALY .WOULD GERMANY OF BEEN ABLE TO HOLD BACK THE RUSSIANS FOR ENOUGH TIME TO MAKE A FULL COUNTER ATTACK TOWARDS MOSCOW IN 1945 AND MAYBE WON THE WAR DID THE GERMANS HAV ANY CHANCE IF THAT HAPPENED OR WERE THEY STILL DOOMED.?

    [ 16. March 2006, 06:43 PM: Message edited by: rifleman1987 ]
     
  2. bigiceman

    bigiceman Member

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    Sorry to say that they are still doomed.

    Here is what I base my opinion on.

    German industry could not produce as much as the Russians.

    German armor was inferior to the Russian armor. The development of the Panther and Tiger were a response to the T34 and the KV tanks. These were new tanks that were being deployed to the Russian mechanized units. By 1944 they would have been fully equiped with these superior tanks.

    In aviation the Luftwaffe had experience but the Russians had numbers, and much greater production.

    Numbers, numbers, numbers.... the German forces could kill ten Russians for every German and still lose, then throw in that the Russians also had women in their armed forces in fighting roles and the odds get even worse.

    Ideology also dooms the Germans. The people that they encountered in their advance could have become allied to their cause, especially in areas like the Ukraine. The Germans treated them like sub-humans instead. They pillaged and killed and mistreated them. This not only removed them as possible allies, it made them partisans and told everyone in their path that they might as well die fighting because they were going to die anyway.

    The Germans had a strong military and experienced troops and generals, it would have been a long an bloody fight. The problem is the first part, it would be a long fight. Germany never geared up for a long fight. They had grown accustomed to easy victory with quick surrender. Their industry was not supportive of a long fight, their economy was not supportive of a long fight. They would run out of men and bullets and money and fuel long before the Russians would have.
     
  3. rifleman1987

    rifleman1987 Member

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    THANKS FOR ANSWERING MY QUESTION.
    ABOUT THE ANSWER TO THE LAST QUESTION ABOUT NUMBERS I THINK GERMANY HAD A POPULATION OF 80000000 PEOPLE AND RUSSIA 160000000 SO THAT MEANS 1GERMAN=2 RUSSIANS ABOUT U SAID THAT EVEN IF GERMANY KILLED 10RUSSIANS FOR EVERY LOSE OF 1 OF THEIRS THEY WOULD STILL LOSE WW2.BUT ANY HIGHER THAN THIS RATIO 1GERMAN FOR 2+ RUSSAINS WOULD MEAN RUSSIA WOULD RUN OUT FIRST. IS THIS RIGHT

    [ 16. March 2006, 08:07 PM: Message edited by: rifleman1987 ]
     
  4. bigiceman

    bigiceman Member

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    The population figures are deceptive. Men-in-arms is what I was refering to. I don't know the figures exactly, so I may have exaggerated. But they did have them heavily outnumber, I think the Soviet military casualties were 20,000,000 and they still had plenty left.
     
  5. Richard

    Richard Expert

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    I can not see in any way a peace term with Hitler was possible don't forget Hitler’s real war was with the Jews here's some timeline info -

    June 30 and July 2 - The New York Times reports via the London Daily Telegraph that over 1,000,000 Jews have already been killed by Nazis.

    Summer - Swiss representatives of the World Jewish Congress receive information from a German industrialist regarding the Nazi plan to exterminate the Jews. They then pass the information on to London and Washington.

    Dec 17, 1942 - British Foreign Secretary Eden tells the British House of Commons the Nazis are "now carrying into effect Hitler's oft repeated intention to exterminate the Jewish people of Europe." U.S. declares those crimes will be avenged.

    March 1, 1943 - In New York, American Jews hold a mass rally at Madison Square Garden to pressure the U.S. government into helping the Jews of Europe

    With the info we had in the west could we really sit back and let this happen? Hitler had to be stopped at all costs.
     
  6. Kai-Petri

    Kai-Petri Kenraali

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    Hitler wanted to conquer Lebensraum in the east and destroy all untermeschen and jews.

    Already before the WW2 begun in Germany alone tens of thousands ( in one document on tv 300,000 was the number mentioned ) disabled and mentally ill people were killed and sterilized. That was racial total war ( even if the deficits at birth are never genetic! ) So even if you´re German but had soemthign wrong with you like had 6 toes on both feet that could mean sterilization for you...
     
  7. Panzer6

    Panzer6 Member

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    Russia did not exist. Russia was not around. The SOVIET UNION on the other hand existed. The USSR had much more people than a measly 160 million people, more or less around 300 - 350 million. Also, they used woman while Germans did not. They did not use woman in the industry either (a few here and there but not much). So Germany had about 30 million fighting the war in total. 5 million directly, the other 25 million gearing up.
     
  8. rifleman1987

    rifleman1987 Member

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    Russia did not exist. Russia was not around. The SOVIET UNION on the other hand existed. The USSR had much more people than a measly 160 million people, more or less around 300 - 350 million. Also, they used woman while Germans did not. They did not use woman in the industry either (a few here and there but not much). So Germany had about 30 million fighting the war in total. 5 million directly, the other 25 million gearing up. </font>[/QUOTE]yeah looks like kindof got it mixed up with just russia stupid me but thanks for pointing that out.
     
  9. tommy tater

    tommy tater Member

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    i personnally think it wouldnt make much of a difference by the time that the soviets where on the oder & preparing to attack berlin they had a numercial advantage of 4-1. it also depends on what time they made peace but it could mean a soviet rule in germany & possibly even france, italy, greece, & a few other countrys.
     
  10. tommy tater

    tommy tater Member

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    i dont think that soviet pressure would allow the allies to make peace with the germans
     
  11. Sloniksp

    Sloniksp Ставка

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    Might we be neglecting the mention of use of slave labor used by Germany?
     
  12. von Rundstedt

    von Rundstedt Dishonorably Discharged

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    What i'll do is put together a population strength of the entire Axis (Including Japan) v Soviet Union.

    So no European invasion by the Western Allies leaving the Soviet Union to face the entire Axis by herself, as Germany and her Axis partners have somehow with a miracle made peace with the Western Allies(if we take this to the enth degree then we would have assume that Japan and USA made peace as well).

    To add to this, the Western Allies in this would have to agree to cancel all supplies to The Soviet Union period, no more lend lease.

    Militirally German and Axis forces would not face an extra 100 divisions or more in North Africa and North Western Europe, this could facilitate the transferrence of an additional 100 plus division to the Eastern Front, without any intervention by the Western Allies as regards to the air offensive, the Luftwaffe would remain intact, this is vital for the introduction of the Jets into Luftwaffe service, another factor is that without Western Allied interference the German Rocket and Missile sites in North Eastern Germany are not attacked, leaving the V Weapons programme intact.

    Production, this is vital. No more Operation Pointblank, German and Axis factories are now left alone to rebuild, vital infrastructure is rebuilt, this gives the Germans and her Axis partners vital breathing space, especially the Roumanian synthetic oil production at Ploesti.

    In the long run how would this pan out is very difficult to calculate but, i could see the tide turns for the Soviets in the latter half of 1944 and if the Axis maintian at least the status quo by 1945 with their factories rebuilt, infrastructure rebuilt and the level of technology that the Germans were displaying and that finally a second Soviet Front opening up with Japan, then by 1946 long range bombers are attacking en masse the Soviet war machine east of the Urals.

    v.R
     
  13. von Rundstedt

    von Rundstedt Dishonorably Discharged

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    Here are some figures on population

    Axis

    Bulgaria; 6.3 mil
    Slovakia; 5.6 mil
    Finalnd; 3.8 mil
    Germany; 78 mil
    Hungary; 10 mil
    Italy; 43.8 mil
    Japan; 72 mil
    Norway; 2.9 mil
    Roumania; 19.6 mil
    Croatia; 5.7 mil

    Total 249.5 mil

    USSR 194.1 mil
     
  14. Tomcat

    Tomcat The One From Down Under

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    Assuming these numbers are right, you must remember that those Axis popuation or more in terms of military soldier numbers are not all in one section of the world, they are spread up across the continent defending many different points, and two other major fronts, both the Italian and French fronts. The Russian front is much larger then the others and against the Soviets, now the Russians can commit virtually all there forces to that one front giving them an extreme number advantage, regardless of total numbers.

    Now for the what if side of this thread, even if it was just the Axis Vs the Soviets, then obviously all Axis forces would be on the Soviet fronts, now although now quite possibly having a number advantage militarily, they also need to arm all these men.

    Germany, who would be the leader in the Axis alliance always faced man shortages, both for the military and civilian us, even with all the countires listed, and as they push further and further into Russia, means more supplies over longer distances, higher partisan activity, which means more mean positioned in the rear sections to defend there, which means less men on the front against the soviets, thus they lose there number advantage. Should we even start on mother nature?

    I don't see how this scenario is much different from the real war, other then the use of many more divisions by the axis on the eastern front. I still think it will end the same, just with more loses to both sides.
     
  15. Za Rodinu

    Za Rodinu Aquila non capit muscas

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    Perhaps if we added San Marino and Lichtenstein the balance would tip. Wait, there's the Principality of Monaco too!
     
  16. JCFalkenbergIII

    JCFalkenbergIII Expert

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    Don't forget the Duchy of Grand Fenwick LOL
     
  17. Sloniksp

    Sloniksp Ставка

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    For anyone to consider that Germany had a chance against the Soviet Union in 1944 is drastically in need of a reality check.

    We must also take into account that large popultions alone mean very little in combat if they have no reason to fight. Germany was fighting for their flawed ideals, the Russians were fighting for their survival. Italy's large population was dragged into a war against their will and had no will to fight, therefore performed abysmal ( minus all the other reasons ofcourse ).

    Not to mention that by D-day German had NO allies!
     
  18. JCFalkenbergIII

    JCFalkenbergIII Expert

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    My friend, It seems that some here will try to grasp on to any hope or idea, no matter how far off from reality, that allows the Germans to win. Especially "What if?"s.
     
  19. von Rundstedt

    von Rundstedt Dishonorably Discharged

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    The one thing that i think that some have forgotten is the timing, i just read the original question and it appears to my to my understanding is that the American & British make peace with Germany in mid 1942, this is obvious to me because this would satisfy the chronology of the cancellation of Operation Torch.

    Why is this significant, because this is prior to the German offensive drive towards Stalingrad, the failure of the German 4th Panzer Army and 6th Army would not have taken place yet, so Germany could send in a larger force from the begining, so in effect the German's could commit an extra 500,000 troops in the southern thrust alone, could the Soviets counter an extra 500,000 German troops in that area in that time period, i seriously doubt it.

    The domino effect has been set off, as i have said previously and ignored by fellow forum users, German and Axis war industries are not effected by what was to be Operation Pointblank, factories remain intact, marshalling yards are not damaged, lines of communication reamain in peak efficiency, armament production is not interupted, Synthetic oil production can be maintained at full capacity.

    Then we have the last piece of the question, no doubt with a full peace treaty between the USA, GB and Germany and is ratified, then i can see that full diplomatic relations would recommence, Britain and America would decare their neutrality in the Axis/Soviet war, trade would recommence between the former enemies, such in foodstuffs and other non military items. Certainly with peace in Europe by mid 1942 there would be no lend lease to the USSR period.

    I'll add more later.

    v.R
     
  20. Tomcat

    Tomcat The One From Down Under

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    But the Afrika corp would still be lost to the British, with the too little support from Germany.

    You don't think that the Germans will still attempt a forcefull talking of Stalingrad? Which would still put there army in danger, although the city woudl probably fall this time, they still would face the same issues of supply and man power. Now what about the crossing of the volga?

    What makes you think that German industries could keep up with their already lacking military this time? Many German Units were still using inferior weapons due to not be able to produce enough new military materials to replace the obselote ones, such as ww1 rifles and machine guns and old french tanks.
     
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