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WHAT IF DDAY DIDNT HAPPEN

Discussion in 'What If - European Theater - Western Front & Atlan' started by rifleman1987, Mar 16, 2006.

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  1. Za Rodinu

    Za Rodinu Aquila non capit muscas

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    Luxembourg! They don't even have an army but at a pinch they can squeeze out a Panzer division or three!
     
  2. Za Rodinu

    Za Rodinu Aquila non capit muscas

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    That's an outright lie! :D Let's see:
    Romania was "persuaded" to change sides in Aug 23 '44
    Bulgaria Sept 9 '44
    Hungary ? '44 (confused!)
    Finland Sep 14 '44
    Slovakia Aug 29 '44
    So Germany had plenty of allies, problem is that the timing was somewhat wrong in what connects with Overlord and the Soviet Summer 44 offensives in Southern Europe.

    See here and try to make some sense out of it :) Axis powers - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

    As a side note, according to Axis powers - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia Japan had a grudge against anybody except Jews :lol:
     
  3. Za Rodinu

    Za Rodinu Aquila non capit muscas

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    We could also postulate that influenced by the Republican victory in the Spanish Civil War, fuelled by the Soviet war machine, Switzerland might suffer a Communist coup ("Cuckoo clock makers of the world, unite!") be persuaded to become an Ally, effectively cutting off all traffic between the Reich and Italy, and having territorial pretentions on Bavaria.

    Also a Communist Spain would be quite interesting with again territorial pretentions on Vichy Provence, not to mention starting from Morocco and reaching for French Algeria and Tunisia, all fed, clothed, armed and supplied by the Lend-Lease Cornucopia.
     
  4. bf109 emil

    bf109 emil Member

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    The chances of Russian signing a separate peace with Germany by 1944 was to far gone to think it might be able or apt to take...More so the delay to end the hostilities might have allowed the production through Speers miracles of the He 162 and me 262 at around 5000 per months and 2000 heavy tanks per month,,,the biggest thorn might be fuel to make new arms function able...and if soviet where victors, would the allied partners sit in at the negotiating table or would it be absent of britain/USA and france
     
  5. bf109 emil

    bf109 emil Member

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    you real think these peoples would help in great deal??
     
  6. Za Rodinu

    Za Rodinu Aquila non capit muscas

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  7. JCFalkenbergIII

    JCFalkenbergIII Expert

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  8. Sloniksp

    Sloniksp Ставка

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    I cant stop laughing! This has become my favorite thread! :rofl: :clap:
     
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  9. Carl W Schwamberger

    Carl W Schwamberger Ace

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    My understanding is there was a severe difficulty in requipping the army to make up the losses of the June 1941 - Febuary 1942 period. Enough equipment to bring the four armys used in Case Blau to full strength was available, but the other armys in the USSR, and in the west had to be neglected to do this. As always transportation was a critical problem and I'm skeptical there were enough trucks used in Africa or by the western Europe garrisons to support another 500,000 or even 200,000 men in mobile offensive operations in the USSR.

    I'd also want to examine the artillery ammunition available. Complaints by German commanders all across the Eastern Front keep poping up, about artillery ammo shortages in 1942. Not much use in doubling the size of Army Group South if you have to reduce the ammo per gun by half.
     
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  10. von Rundstedt

    von Rundstedt Dishonorably Discharged

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    Why, would they be lost, do you know any history of the North African campaign, as i said for this senario to work a peace treaty by the Americans and British would have to have taken affect by mid 1942, at this stage (Rommels forces had reached just west of El Alamein) just over 60 kilometres from Alexandria. In my understanding of the senario Britain had made peace with Britian at this time, so at this point in time German forces pull back to the Egypt-Lybian border and eventually they are re-assigned to the Russian front leaving the Italians in North Africa. There is no Operation Torch period, so no allied landings in North Western Africa, no allied landings in Sicily, Sardegnia or the Italian Mainland, so if there aren't any allied landings no German casualties, no loss of equipment.

    Yes Stalingrad would still be targeted, the Germans are trying to establish the A-A line afterall.

    Again, you surprise me with this, so let me explain once more, if you care to understand, if that is possible. No Allied bombing offensive from June 1942 onwards, yes i understand that German industry has been hit but at the time of mid 1942 it was not catastrophic, within 12 months German capacity would be up in full production, unhindered by the Allied Air Offensive.

    Germans using inferior weapons to the Soviets, now that takes the cake, i understand that the Soviets made some brilliant pieces of weaponary, but not everything that the Soviets put up against the German's and her Axis partners was superior in every way as you suggest.

    As per usual you should look at the weapons that the Germans used in Barbarossa, and if you are correct, the Axis did a remarkable job in the capture of over 6 million Soviet POW's with what you assert as having WWI calibre weapons.
     
  11. von Rundstedt

    von Rundstedt Dishonorably Discharged

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    Carl W Schwamberger's quote.

    My understanding is there was a severe difficulty in requipping the army to make up the losses of the June 1941 - Febuary 1942 period. Enough equipment to bring the four armys used in Case Blau to full strength was available, but the other armys in the USSR, and in the west had to be neglected to do this. As always transportation was a critical problem and I'm skeptical there were enough trucks used in Africa or by the western Europe garrisons to support another 500,000 or even 200,000 men in mobile offensive operations in the USSR.

    von Rundstedt's reply

    So what you are saying if i understand you correctly, that somehow after the British/Americans and the Germans sign a Peace Treaty in say mid 1942, that Germany is not going to reassign all those army assets from North Africa to Russia, also as i pointed out to Tomcat, Operation Torch does not take place, so the domino effect does not take place, no allied landings in North Africa, Sicily, Sardegnia or Italy in 1942/1943, no diversion of military assets to fight those campaigns, they are sent to fight the Soviets also Italy is never invaded still remains a full Axis ally.

    Carl W Schwarmberger quote

    I'd also want to examine the artillery ammunition available. Complaints by German commanders all across the Eastern Front keep poping up, about artillery ammo shortages in 1942. Not much use in doubling the size of Army Group South if you have to reduce the ammo per gun by half.

    von Rundstedt's reply

    I have looked at this from another angle, maybe you are correct on this, maybe expanding the frontline troops by that many would put pressure on supply, it may be better to have those troops in reserve.

    v.R
     
  12. Slipdigit

    Slipdigit Good Ol' Boy Staff Member WW2|ORG Editor

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    In December of 42, that would have amounted to 6 divisions in North Africa plus 48 in the West out of 270 divisions. Large numbers of the divisions in the West were forming, training or lacked transport and/or heavy artillery.
     
  13. Carl W Schwamberger

    Carl W Schwamberger Ace

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    What I was getting at is Germany was unable to bring more than four of its armys in the USSR back to full strength in the spring of 1942 for Case Blue. It does not look like there is enough transportation, particularly automotive, to support much more than that even if everything in the west and Africa is available.

    In this I was only addressing the idea that Case Blue could be made significantly stronger just by adding 500,000 more men from the west and Africa. Now what might happen later in the winter of 1942 or in 1943 is another matter.

    " No Allied bombing offensive from June 1942 onwards, yes i understand that German industry has been hit but at the time of mid 1942 it was not catastrophic, within 12 months German capacity would be up in full production, unhindered by the Allied Air Offensive."

    More important in the remainder of 1942 and beyond would be the end of the British blockade. While Germany would still have a cash problem hindering the imeadiate payment for imports it would still be possible to get some of the most critical raw materials. ie: the Chromium that was so badly needed and nearly unavailable after 1941.
     
  14. JCFalkenbergIII

    JCFalkenbergIII Expert

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    Like II have said before. Logistics and supplies are the bane of the "What If?".
     
  15. Slipdigit

    Slipdigit Good Ol' Boy Staff Member WW2|ORG Editor

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    You mean them there soldiers gotta eat? When did this come up?
     
  16. von Rundstedt

    von Rundstedt Dishonorably Discharged

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    So where is the major problem in this if i uderstand correctly

    Cessation of the North African campaign, back to status quo, Germany relocates her armed forces back to Germany for rest and refitting and by 1943 she has all those divisions up to full strength.

    No Grand Italian Campaign by the Allies period, again no diversion of troops and supplies to repulse the allies landings in Sicily, Sardegnia and Italian Mainland, Italy remains a full axis partner by the end of 1943, her military are essentiall remains intact, no catastrophic German losses in troops and equipment.

    No Allied Bomber offensive past mid 1942, No Allied sea blockade to Germany past mid 1942.

    No Allied invasion of North-Western Europe, apart from garrison units in France & Low Countries plus Norway no other German divisions need to be sent or retained, locally raised SS units begin to take control of security.

    Britain and Commonwealth nations plus USA begin to re-establish full diplomatic and ecconomic relations with Germany and all Axis nations by 1943. And decide to declare themselves neutral in the war between the Axis and Soviet Union.

    As i see it the entire Axis alliance by mid 1943 has not lost that much, they have gained a valuable peace treaty with the west, the west has washed their hands of the Soviet Union, she is now on her own to face the entire intact Axis, Stalin and his regime are on their own, no Churchill, No Roosevelt, No Patton, No Montgomery, No RAF and USAAF bomber offensive, no allied landings, No Lend-Lease.
     
  17. Za Rodinu

    Za Rodinu Aquila non capit muscas

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    So the best of all worlds would be if the sea swallowed the UK and the USA, and the sun shined gloriously above the Reich, providing bountiful crops and excellent weather for unimpeded mining extraction.

    The Arabian, etc. oil would be misteriously transferred to say Bavaria, and before going under the briny the USA would transfer it's entire automotive industry to the Ruhrgebiet.

    Happy now?

    This thread is a bit potty, isnt'it?
    [​IMG]
    And don't say I invented this one, it comes straight from this forum's graphic files :D
     
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  18. Tomcat

    Tomcat The One From Down Under

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    It seems to br getting more ficticious with ever post.
     
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  19. Joe

    Joe Ace

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    I wish there more what ifs where more like T.A Gardener's!
    (Please say I spelled his name right!)

    Ones like this are just, well words cannot describe them.
     
  20. von Rundstedt

    von Rundstedt Dishonorably Discharged

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    Spoken like a true Stalinite.

    Now i understand this forum site, this site is dedicated to the one true fact.

    The Soviet Union is the one true race of supermen.

    Heil Stalin
     
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