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What if Germany and Russia were allies???

Discussion in 'What If - Mediterranean & North Africa' started by Mustang, Oct 6, 2002.

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  1. Mustang

    Mustang Member

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    :eek: This should be interesting......
     
  2. dasreich

    dasreich Member

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    A very unlikely combination to be sure, but here is the short answer; were all speaking German, or were all speaking Russian.

    The long answer; Germanys tactics and training combined with Russias manpower and resources would create the most devastating alliance ever. Russia would hit Asia and Japan whilst Germany rolls over Europe, Britain, and Africa. Perhaps they would meet in Iran? Either way, after Defeating Europe and Asia, North America would be in deep trouble. If South America decides to join the war effort, then an invasion of the US becomes possible.
     
  3. Mustang

    Mustang Member

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    :eek: That's a scary thought. Yes it would be a very unlikely combination. Hitler despised Communism. If we were all speaking German or Russian, would our government be facist or Communist? :(

    Scary.....
     
  4. redcoat

    redcoat Ace

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    They were :eek: until, the Germans invaded the SU in 1941.
    In 1939 a few days after the German invasion of Poland, the SU invaded Poland as well with the prior agreement of the Germans. Also the SU was supplying the Germans with fuel, food stuffs and raw materials until the very day of the invasion.

    [ 06 October 2002, 04:21 PM: Message edited by: redcoat ]
     
  5. dasreich

    dasreich Member

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    Redcoat; USSR and Nazi Germany had a treaty of non-aggression, not an alliance. They mearly agreed to stay out of each others way, which both had every intention of NOT doing, except Hitler beat Stalin to the punch.
     
  6. redcoat

    redcoat Ace

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    Redcoat; USSR and Nazi Germany had a treaty of non-aggression, not an alliance. They mearly agreed to stay out of each others way, which both had every intention of NOT doing, except Hitler beat Stalin to the punch.

    How do you explain the joint invasion of Poland then? This was more military co-operation than was ever shown between Japan and Germany yet Japan is classed as a ally of Germany?
     
  7. Kai-Petri

    Kai-Petri Kenraali

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    The Ribbentrop-Molotov deal in Aug 1939 was a non-aggression pact. Poland, Finland etc were divided by the two countries in a secret memorandum:

    ------

    On the occasion of the signature of the Non-aggression Pact between the German Reich and the Union of Socialist Soviet Republics the undersigned plenipotentiaries of each of the two parties discussed in strictly confidential conversations the question of the boundary of their respective spheres of influence in Eastern Europe. These conversations led to the following conclusions:

    1. In the event of a territorial and political rearrangement in the areas belonging to the Baltic States (Finland, Estonia, Latvia, Lithuania), the northern boundary of Lithuania shall represent the boundary of the spheres of influence of Germany and the U.S.S.R. In this connection the interest of Lithuania in the Vilna area is recognized by each party.

    2. In the event of a territorial and political rearrangement of the areas belonging to the Polish state the spheres of influence of Germany and the U.S.S.R. shall be bounded approximately by the line of the rivers Narew, Vistula, and San.

    The question of whether the interests of both parties make desirable the maintenance of an independent Polish state and how such a state should be bounded can only be definitely determined in the course of further political developments.

    In any event both Governments will resolve this question by means of a friendly agreement.

    3. With regard to Southeastern Europe attention is called by the Soviet side to its interest in Bessarabia. The German side declares its complete political disinterestedness in these areas. [34]

    4. This protocol shall be treated by both parties as strictly secret.

    Moscow, August 23, 1939.

    For the Government of the German Reich:

    V. RIBBENTROP

    Plenipotentiary of the Government of the U.S.S.R.:

    V. MOLOTOV

    For those interested:

    http://www.ibiblio.org/pha/nsr/nsr-02.html#20

    --------

    Alliance negotiations were made during 1940 at some level but probably all for show.Hitler had already decided to attack Russia.

    [​IMG]
     
  8. Panzerknacker

    Panzerknacker New Member

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    If it lasted-then we would all be in a world of shit!!!!
    There combined strength wouldv'e been way too much-plus the Jap forces in the Pacific-EEKKK!!! :eek:
     
  9. AndyW

    AndyW Member

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    British and American military planning was made under the assumption that Russia isn't on thier side. Though the "rainbow"-variants were some kind of outdated by France's fall, FDR, Churchill and Marshall went on with the "Victory"-program (building up an U.S. mass Army, keep the Brits alive, full focus on Europe at the cost of the Pacific).

    Consequentely, the German attack on Russia and the following months, when both the U.S. and British politicians and military leaders believed that the USSR will collapse under German military victories, didn't cause a big nervous breakdown among U.S/British planning staff. They never counted on USSR's help, but planned to have to do it all by themselfs, so it was a nice surprise seing the USSR's stopping the Germans in late 1941.

    In early 1942, when it became clear that the USSR will remain and tie up most of the German Army, the "Victory"-program was changed away from building a mass Army of millions towards a huge airfleet and naval forces.

    However, it would had always ended up with an U.S./German clash sooner or later, and my bet is clearly on the U.S.A. in this siutation, not only because of better technical and material capacities but also because of the moral superiority of democratic countries against dictatorships.

    Cheers,

    [ 07 October 2002, 06:48 AM: Message edited by: AndyW ]
     
  10. vonManstein39

    vonManstein39 Member

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    Russia and Germany could have been allies if Hitler and the Nazis not taken power. Before 1933 the Weimar Republic and the Soviet Union cooperated secretly. The Germans tested their weapons in Russia where the Allies couldn't see them, and in return shared their technology and tactics with the Russians.

    Had this continued up until the Second World War, an anti-Western Russo-German alliance would have been possible. Provided Germany didn't dispute Russia's aims in the Baltic States and in the Balkans (Russia wanted control over Finland, the Baltics, Rumania, Bulgaria and European Turkey including Istanbul) then Germany could have got on quite well with Russia.

    The Russians wouldn't really want to fight the Western Allies themselves because there would be little direct territorial gain for them in doing so. Although the Soviets might want to establish control over Afghanistan and Iran. Instead, in a war between Britain, France and Germany, Russia would have acted as a gigantic supply dump, sending the Germans food, fuel and maybe some weapons too (I know the Germans would have been very interested in the T-34 and KV-1 tanks). Basically fulfilling the same role that America did for the British in 1941.

    Russia would be hesitant to fight Japan because the Russian Pacific Fleet was pathetic compared to the IJN, which makes a Russian invasion of Japan impossible. But they would resist any Japanese attack on them, and also supply weapons to the Chinese.
     
  11. Mustang

    Mustang Member

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    Very nice post. Welcome to the forums. I hope you like it here. I can tell that it would be very nice to hear from you again in the future.
     
  12. De Vlaamse Leeuw

    De Vlaamse Leeuw Member

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    If Germany, Italy, Russia and Japan would have joined the Triple Pact, then:

    Germany invades:
    *Poland (1939)
    *Denmark, Norway, Holland, Luxemburg, France & Belgium (1940)
    *England together with Russia (1940)
    *Gibraltar, malta (1940 or 1941)
    *North Africa together with Spain, Italy and Vichy France (1941)
    *Turkey together with Russia (1941)

    Russia invades:
    *England together with Germany (1940)
    *Turkey together with Germany (1941)
    *Iraq, Iran (1941 & 1942)

    Italy invades:
    *Malta together with the Germans (1940 or 1941)
    *North Africa together with Germany, Spain and Vich France

    Japan invades:
    *all the attacks in our time line
    *China together with Russia (1940-1943)
    *India together with Russia (1943)

    And after conquering Asia, Africa and Europe. They would go after America and Oceanie!!!
     
  13. vonManstein39

    vonManstein39 Member

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    Agree except that Russia wouldn't have helped Germany invade England. In the Baltic and Arctic, the Soviets only had two very elderly dreadnaughts and a few cruisers and destroyers - even weaker than the Kreigsmarine! The Russians would just sit back and let Germany take on England for them, while pursuing their own aims in the Balkans and Turkey and taking advantage of any British collapse in the Middle East.
     
  14. De Vlaamse Leeuw

    De Vlaamse Leeuw Member

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    Yes probably, but with the help of the kriegsmarine and the Red Navy they had a change to defeat the Royal Navy.

    All ships help in this matter.
     
  15. mp38

    mp38 Member

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    First of all, this would never have happened! These two ideologies were totally opposite in thier beliefs!
    Have ever played the game "Axis and Allies".
    Once I played it with 4 others. You each get a country to play as (Germany, USA, England, Russia, and Japan). The game starts in Dec 1941 when the US joins the war. Typically Germany and Japan are allies, and USA, Russia, and England are on the same side. However, one time we decided to make our own sides. Every nation for itself, and you could make allies by negotiating with anohter player. I played Germany. I became allies with Russia, and we won the game! We started by Destroying England first. Japan and the USA joined forces, and myself and Russia destroyed Japan, and finally the USA. The entire game lasted over one month of playing every night!
    It was fun though. Later we tried it again. This time I allied myself with England, and we started by invading and destroying Russia! We won that game as well!

    However, just for aurguments' sake, let's say it did happen. Germany and Russia would easily have conquered Europe and Asia. I don't know if they would have made it across the pond. Both Germany and Russia didn't have a great navy like Japan, Britian, and the USA. What if Japan and the USA were allies? Fighting against the Brits? Then the Brits would all be speaking American by now! (Ha ha! :D )

    Matt :cool:
     
  16. Mustang

    Mustang Member

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    Britian didn't have that great of a Navy. None of their fighter planes were that great.......
     
  17. redcoat

    redcoat Ace

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    Mustang "Britian didn't have that great of a Navy."
    In 1939-1940 Britain had the largest navy in the world.
    Strength of the RN in Sept 1939
    15 Capital ships
    7 Aircraft Carriers
    15 Heavy Cruisers
    46 Light Cruisers
    181 Destroyers
    59 Submarines
    54 Escorts

    "None of their fighter planes were that great......."
    I presume you are refering to naval fighter aircraft in which case you are correct, However aircover could be provided by Spitfires and Hurricanes which were great :D
     
  18. vonManstein39

    vonManstein39 Member

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    The Royal Navy in 1939 was not the best in the world, 13 of its 15 capital ships were laid down before 1918, and its carrier aircraft were inferior to those of Japan (although no-one outside Japan knew this at the time).

    However it was by far the best navy in Europe - no other European navy could even come close. Even the German and Italian navies combined were much weaker than the Royal Navy.
     
  19. Mustang

    Mustang Member

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    [​IMG] Sorry my mistake. By the end of the war it was still probably the best Navy in Europe, but by that time the Japanese Navy and American Navy would've been better. Whether or not the American Navy was better than the Japanese, not sure, but I would say that the Japanese Navy was better considering Pearl Harbor. Then you have to take into account Midway and the Coral sea. So which was better? I would say that the American had the better naval planes and that the Japs had a larger fleet. Whether or not the fleets were larger than the Royal Navy?.......Not sure. :confused:
     
  20. De Vlaamse Leeuw

    De Vlaamse Leeuw Member

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    I think that the IJN was the best. Better than the Brittish and the Americans.

    Even at Midway the IJN was better (planes + ships), but because of luck they won.

    I think if the Royal Navy and IJN would have fight against each oter, that IJN would have won.

    IJN had more modern carriers. Better armour, heavier guns, ...
     
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