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What If: Germany captured enough territory to have enough materials to build capital ships.

Discussion in 'What If - European Theater - Western Front & Atlan' started by HESH, Oct 9, 2020.

?

Could the Royal Navy fight off my full strength Kreigsmarine?

  1. Yes - on their own

  2. Yes - with the USN help

  3. No - not at all

Results are only viewable after voting.
  1. Takao

    Takao Ace

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    Of course, th real bear(pun intended) will be Stalin's blue water navy. Not that the Soviet industry could complete it within Stalin's time frame of 1947.
     
  2. HESH

    HESH Member

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    Yeah my bad, I should have done more research before I suggested my Kreigsmarine...

    I'm a critic of the choice to arm the Scharnhorst and Gneisenau with 15in guns, I would think that the 11in guns would suffice.
    I'm a firm believer in the more shit you throw at the wall, the more is going to stick...

    In my mind the Yamato is better than the A-150 design... Which is the same layout... 3 x 3 instead of 3 x 2...

    Regards,
    HESH
     
    Last edited: Oct 13, 2020
  3. Takao

    Takao Ace

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    The Germans, I believe, had originally wanted the 15s on the Twins, however had to maintain their treaty agreements, which they were not yet ready to break. The upgrade was further reinforced by the Admiiral Graf Spee, and their studies on commerce warfare. Not to mention the occasional British old battleship acting as convoy escort. So there is sense in making the upgrade.

    The Japanese naval mindset was - We can't out produce them, so we will out range them. This lead to the 18.1-inch guns of Yamato, the Long Lance torpedo, and the majority of their carrier aircraft.
     
  4. Takao

    Takao Ace

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    Returning to the British 9.2-inch gunned cruiser...

    While the British did return to a heavy cruiser during the war, it was to have triple 8-inch turrets, the 9.2 having fallen from favor. But, while it was wanted. It was never given high enough priority to begin construction.
     
  5. Takao

    Takao Ace

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    Returning to British carriers...

    Looking further into the matter, more Ark Royals seems more unlikely. The armored decks of later carriers was not just protection against bombs, but also from cruiser gunfire beyond 7,000 yards. After the 3 Illustrious class carriers, beginning with Indomitable, a second hanger deck was added, but it was not the full length of the first. This allowed for 48 aircraft to be carried, and with the adoption of a permanent deck park, it went up to 81. So, it seems most likely that British carriers would follow as the did historically. But, that would probably be dependent on British armor production and construction capacity convening large warships.
     
    Last edited: Oct 13, 2020
  6. HESH

    HESH Member

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    Do you know what the name of the design was?
    WoWs has the Drake with 3x3 234mm and Goliath with 4x3 234mm. But knowing WG... They probably made it up completely...
     
  7. Takao

    Takao Ace

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    They were designs only and had not progressed far enough in the design process to be named.

    Briefly looking at Drake, she is probably based off the design. Goliath AFAIK, is fantasy, as the British were looking at quadruple main turrets to keep weight and cost down.
     
    Last edited: Oct 14, 2020
  8. Roderick Hutchinson

    Roderick Hutchinson Member

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    Hitler himself referred to himself as a coward in relationship to the KM, after the sinking of the Bismarck the KM never ventured out into the Atlantic again.
     
  9. Roderick Hutchinson

    Roderick Hutchinson Member

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    What about this, the British buys under lend lease a dozen Essex class fleet carriers, but Britain builds up to 60 escort carriers.
     
  10. OpanaPointer

    OpanaPointer I Point at Opana Staff Member WW2|ORG Editor

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    Where do they build them? Did the infrastructure exist to do this? What about escorts? The Hunter-Killer teams consisted of CVEs with DD and/or DE escorts, those being part of the kill when they were in range to take part.
     
  11. Roderick Hutchinson

    Roderick Hutchinson Member

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    I was thinking that the USA builds the 12 Essex's then Britain builds the escorts
     
  12. Carronade

    Carronade Ace

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    Pardon me if I’ve missed something, but are we hypothesizing:

    1. Germany is at war with Britain, Russia, and possibly other continental nations. Germany would have some naval construction ongoing but would only start building to seriously challenge the RN after bringing most of Europe under her control.

    2. Britain and Germany are at peace while Germany takes control of enough of Europe to mount the challenge.

    In case 2. there would be no reason for the US to provide Lend-Lease. Britain could buy ships for cash, but wouldn’t they prefer to build their own designs in their own shipyards?
     
  13. Roderick Hutchinson

    Roderick Hutchinson Member

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    You did not read my post, after the sinking of the Bismarck, Hitler proclaimed himself a coward of the sea, never ordered the KM surface fleet to put to sea from that point on. Germany could build more ship but they would never outgun the RN or USN combined.
     
  14. Slipdigit

    Slipdigit Good Ol' Boy Staff Member WW2|ORG Editor

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    I don't see the purpose of building ships that never put to sea.

    They need to train, from managing water in boilers to controling battlegroups, which the lack of will decidedly impinge on the effectiveness of a navy.
     
  15. RichTO90

    RichTO90 Well-Known Member

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    Um, Unternehmen ZERBERUS? Unless you believe Hitler did not know about it?

    Unternehmen REGENBOGEN? Ditto.

    Unternehmen OSTFRONT? Ditto?

    The support of German coastal operations in the Baltic by Admiral Scheer, Lützow, Admiral Hipper, Prinz Eugen, Nürnberg, Köln, and Emden in 1944? Ditto.

    I suspect it had as much to do with a lack of means to do anything more as it did with Hitler's cowardice.
     
  16. Carronade

    Carronade Ace

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    The US "only" built 24 Essexes (though 8 more were authorized) and only 14 were commissioned by the end of 1944, so it might be a bit difficult to spare a dozen. Considering Lend-Lease implies that the war is ongoing, whether or not the US is an active belligerent, but either way we would likely be reluctant to give away CVs - especially if we were fighting Japan.

    11 of the Essexes were authorized prior to Pearl Harbor, although only half of them had been laid down. Along with the building program, we had to expand construction facilities; new building ways or docks were provided for Newport News Shipbuilding, Bethlehem Fore River, and the NY, Philadelphia, and Norfolk Navy Yards.

    We did provide the British 38 escort carriers; they themselves built/converted only 6. In 1942 they started a program of light fleet carriers, which eventually numbered 19, although only four were deployed in WWII and did not get into action before VJ-Day. Some of these "economy" ships ended up being very long-lived; two served, on opposite sides, in the 1982 Falklands War.
     
  17. Carronade

    Carronade Ace

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    Interesting example. Of course Hitler knew and approved of it. It was a strategic retreat, representing the abandonment of operations of heavy ships in the Atlantic. It was the right thing to do; remaining in French ports under RAF attack was hardly viable, nor was trying to get home via the open Atlantic. Bringing the ships home could also support Germany’s top priority at the time, the war against Russia.
     
  18. Biak

    Biak Boy from Illinois Staff Member

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    It seems to me that most Wars are lost by the overreach of the aggressor nation. Greed leads to a false sense of Superiority which inevitably leads to desires beyond their capabilities. Germany proved this twice.

    How about we consider Hitler ceased ' Land acquisition' and stopped with the conquest of Poland and France?
     
  19. Carronade

    Carronade Ace

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    We might also consider Napoleon. His two great debacles as Emperor were the two campaigns he initiated himself, Spain and Russia. We might add the Hundred Days, his return from exile which culminated at Waterloo. On the other hand, he successfully defended his empire in the wars of 1805, 1806, and 1809 when hostilities were initiated by his opponents.
     
  20. Biak

    Biak Boy from Illinois Staff Member

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    Considering Napoleon fought for the five years, Battles won but Wars loss. And we all know what happened to him in the end.
     

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