What if helicopter development was accelerated in World War 2?

all those examples you cited, though, are few and far between. Generally a presence of even minimum AA would deter any transport chopper use across lines.

 

If they are flying close to the earth they would show up on most tactical radars... was their even such a thing with WW-II armies?

 

What type and model of helicopter(s)? When.? Where? Source please? Several Flettner FL-282s were stationed in Berlin in 1945. Most were shot down by Soviet fighters and Flak.

German Helicopters 1928-1945
http://www.scribd.com/doc/37634/German-Helicopters-19281945

 

"Helicopters of the Third Reich", Steve Coates , 2002.

Heres a review of the book that also includes the quote of the mock dogfight.
http://stonebooks.com/archives/030615.shtml

Every single prototype is listed and its fate. Many were destroyed during allied air raids and there is some mention of possible use on the eastern front , but there's no confirmation on that. According to the records in the book, no Fl-282 or Fa 223 were shot down in action. Most not destroyed in the air raids were disassembled or destroyed in the last weeks of the war to avoid capture...while a tiny number escaped to the west with their helicopters. Reportedly 4-5 were 'possibly captured by the Soviets but two of those was operational...so maybe they got shot down?

I didn't realise they had so many. There were...

6 x Fl-265
24 x Fl-282
20 x Fa-223 + 11 nearly completed & parts for another 19

 

I would think any heli-borne action would be preceded by an artilley barrage (eg Monte Cassino) or fighter-bomber sweeps (Arnhem) to take out ground opposition. Also, as with modern tactics, the idea is to land away from enemy concentrations - hit 'em where they aint - so they were unlikley to be heavy AA defences.

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by seeker
The germans did mock dog fights between fighters and helicopters and found that it was very difficult to get a helicopter in the gun sights long enough to have shot it down. Its almost impossible when the Helicopter is using NAPE tactics , which the Germans were experimenting with as well.


What type and model of helicopter(s)? When.? Where? Source please?

You didn't answer the questions. What type and model of helicopter(s)? When.? Where? Source please? Looks like the two different sources about the Flettner FL-282s don't jibe. But you didn't address the main point.

 

Naw don't bother. Ill answer my own question.


The following extract from the E-Stelle Travemunde's monthly report of June 1944 is also worthy of mention:
"A mock combat between the Fl 282 (Flettner company pilot Fuisting) and a Fw 190 (pilot Ltn. Eisenlohr of E.Kdo.25) took place at Schweidnitz on 22.06.1944, in order to investigate the chances of a fighter hitting a helicopter. At present the evaluation of the film and the pilot reports have not yet arrived. At heights above 100 meters the fighter was able to get the helicopter in its sights briefly. Near the ground, especially in difficult terrain, the fighter has little chance against a helicopter." Vulnerability to gunfire was also investigated, whereby they proceeded on the assumption that the mathematical probability of a moving rotor blade being hit was much less than that of a fixed wing. Another consideration was that it should be extremely difficult to fire on and hit the slow-moving helicopter from a fast fighter. The latter could escape by making brief evasive movements, which the fighter could not follow. Furthermore, tests involving ground firing at the moving rotor blades were carried out, as the helicopter was felt to be more vulnerable to gunfire from the ground than from the air. An unmanned, tethered Kolibri was used; in spite of several hits in the rotor blades ground fire failed to bring down the helicopter.

Flettner Fl 282 "Kolibri" helicopter - development history, photos, technical data

 

I would think that Choppers would not make a good impact in dog fights at all,they were not built for that combat role but on the other hand would make a brilliant escape aricaft and also drop loads off to important units that are stuck on the ground.
depends on the role of duty,Choppers would have made an impact but not in dog fight roles.

 

They would certainly be helpful for extracting agents from German occupied areas, but no so much for dropping them off since the object is not to let the enemy know the agent is there and the whopping of a helicopter blade would certainly give him away.

 

I have just watch a footage of ww2 Choppers,and to put this into account. Chopper invention is a ralitive new design ww2,and let's face it ww2 choppers do not have the same effects has a 2000 chopper.This would limited there use of cause but like i said before,the chopper would make a good call in drop ais care /food care supplies.Probelary that's all the chopper would be use for during ww2 era.

 

The major problem for "choppers" during this period was the weak engines of the time, comparatively weak in the power to weight area is my meaning.

They couldn't deliver the power or the range needed to make them a viable flying platform for much more than local rescue for one man only. Their lifting capacities and range were simply too little and too limited. Dropping first aid and food rations was much better served by parachute, even if they missed their destination.

It wasn't until the advent of more powerful, lighter engines that they truly came into their own, and even those piston engines were rather limited; i.e. Korean war. It was the turbine engine which really made the helio the aircraft needed for the battlefield, and that wasn't really applied until the Vietnam era. Much too late for WW2.

Oh, and don't forget the limiting factor of altitude which a rotary wing craft has to battle, not only does the piston engine loose power at altitude, the blades of the chopper loose lift in the rarer air. Still today there are limits to the lifting capacities of choppers at height.

 

The original reason for the Germans development of Helicopters was for naval use to try to redress the some of the lack of naval air scouting and coverage. In fact RLM acknolweged a pressing need for rotoray platforms back in 1935. The Fa-61 was type certified in 1936 and could have gone into mass production at that time.

When the war began it was reconginsed that as many as three helicopter designs would be needed. A tiny one for Uboats , a small one for warship ASW protection and scouting , plus a large helicopter for coastal patrol.

During this period contracts were awarded to a number of other designers to produce prototypes of helicopter inovations. These included the auto gyro C-30 [40 built under licence in the late 1930s] , FW186, riedl RL, WNF 342, FL 185, FL-186 ; FL 265 , NR54 , Fa 225, Fa-330, FA 336, Helofly III/59, FL 282 & Fa 223. Most of which were built with two prototypes consuming considerable resources, time and funding.

Every thing up to the Fl-265 were produced before the war and the rest during. The only reason so much development occured initially was due to Hitlers belief that major European war was not expected until 1943-45 time period, so their was plenty time still to develope. After the war started most projects were shelved since Hitler and his cronies believed the war would be over in a year or two at most. That all changed after Stalingrad when Hitler started to recongnise he might lose this war.

However if you review the above development from the vantage point of a early 1930s armaments programme seeking tech edge for a European wide war that might break out at the start of the next decade, then pressure is on to produce something and produce it fast.

If you go by sheer numbers alone thats about 120 Fa-61 helicopters built with ~ 50 before the war . Inaddition at least 220 Fa-330 would also be built . That could allow them to station up to 3 helicopters on each battleship, Panzerschiff, heavy and light cruiser all through the war and one autogyro kite on each of up to 100 Subs at sea.

But the actual production would be many many times that if you factor in the increasing efficency of only producing one or two models. So every single DD & TB could get a Fa-61 while each of the smaller Mboot and Vboot could get an Fa-330 or the powered Fa-336.

 

Having a quick shufty about, it seems that the Choctaw and the Flying Banana were powered by the R-1830, but giving a bit more power than the versions in the B-17/DC-3. The Chickasaw managed to lift 12 troops with a single R-1340 - so it seems even a fairly clunky engine giving 0.7 hp/lb might be enough.

WW2 airframes and rotors would no doubt be a good deal heavier, but it seems hypothetically entirely feasible to build a chopper around a decent radial engine (Hercules, BMW 801, R-1820, whatever) capable of SAR, medevac, sonar dunking and maybe even amphibious landings as a sort of flying DUKW - however its very debatable whether it would have been cost-effective compared to the alternatives. Any kind of use involving being shot at would definitely be contra-indicated, IMO. It would also be the very definition of a challenging high-risk development program, and all for a relatively niche purpose.
Something like a microlight would be a better bet for stuff like U-boat reconnaisance, IMO - hang gliders and moped engines are cheap and simple to experiment with.