What if Herr Speer...

Hehehe!

Imagine all that Albert Speer, the nazi genious would have been appointed misnister of weaponry in 1939? We must remember that this means new weapons and mass production... Becasue the ammount of weaponry built would have peaked in 1941-42...

 

I think this is one of those what-ifs that I can say Germany would probably have won. Earlier jets, earlier heavy tanks, maybe a shift to total war much sooner than history records. Germany likely would have mastered control of the skies and a successful sealion very well might have ensued (although that might be pushing it). More military production and greater technology would mean a much greater chance of success on the eastern front. And if USSR is defeated, Germany wins WW2.

 

Good idea...
dasreich, you're theory is a good one, but I do see one issue- Speer didn't have anything to do with researching and testing new weapons; only production. And, early in the war, german equipment was not so much superior to that of the allies. The T-34 vs. early PzIV is a good example- the PzIV was up-gunned as a direct result of experience with the T-34. In other words, the germans did not create new equipment until they needed it. And even if Speer had been in charge of production, for the most part there was no apparent need for too much new equipment early on.
That being said, I do think the battle of Britian could have been greatly effected. Better planes with larger fule capacity could have allowed further penetration into England and longer missions. Better fighters could also have done much to counter the Spitfire. Possibly, the germans could have gotten Enlgand to sue for peace... but then again, that would likely cause the US to increase the support they gave England.

Good topic!

 

Good point crazy. I think perhaps him in that position would influence tech development, but your right about no direct effect.

This is indeed a good topic.

 

This is a really good thought, Friedrich.

By coincidence I just bought Joachim Fest's new biography of Speer. So I can't give a fully-thought answer just yet - but certainly, this would have been very, very positive for Germany and just the opposite for her enemies.....

 

Hello!

When speaking about german tank development, I do think they had plans for tiger tank before they had seen T34. then again panther probably was planned by the T34 structure image.
Also Peenemunde was there, so lots of stuff was coming. the first german jet flew already back in 1938 (correct me if I´m wrong).

It wasn´t until Stalingrad that Hitler etc noticed that everything must be produced in bigger amounts. production levels were less than the front needed before, and people were believing in a short war in the east as well. Hitler was the man behind all the decisions so I cannot tell if Speer could have done a thing if AH wanted to lower production. It was part of the propaganda, troops were sent home, factories made other than war material, lots of dog races were kept to help the image of "normal" life.

I do agree A. Speer was quite a guy, as production levels were higher in 1944 than ever and surely the allied bombings caused some problems.

 

Correct, Kai- the germans had a plan for a big tank as early as 1938, I think (I'll check tonight). But many of the final details were worked out as a result of experience form combat. The 88 being the best example there- after the germans discovered the performance of the 88 as an annti-tank gun, Hitler insisted it be mounted on the Tiger. And I believe that did not happen until 1940-41.
But that is a good point, along the same lines as what dasreich mentioned- Speer being in charge of production could well have resulted in quicker, more efficient research.
I guess my main point would be that the gremans didn't see any need for more production or better weapons until really mid 1941.

You know, I don't want to divert the subject here, but the opposite would also make an interetsing "What If?"- what if Speer HAD NOT been around at all? How would that have effected the last couple years of the war?

Again, good topic...

 

I don't know if the Germans had any plans in 38 for a big tank but it is a proven fact that the Tiger was a direct result of the experiences against the T-34. The experiences in Russian convinced Hitler that tanks had to have the punching power at long distances as well as thicker armour. Thus, the Tiger line. The General staff wanted mobility so they kept the medium tanks and focused on the panthers later on.

 

Again NO!

I will tell you what Albert Speer as a minister of weaponry in 1939 means:

Enough ammunition and hand guns for EVERY soldier.
Enough ammount of tanks (Pz III and IV).
Enough ammount of lorries, half-tracks and other vehicles. (This means that all the Wehrmacht would have been mobile enough to WIN the war)
Enough ammount of aeroplanes of every kind to support all the troops in all fronts (Ju-87, Me-109E, Ju-88, forget about the bloody jets!)
A lot more submarines.
And certainly, a more rapid technologic development of new weaponry. But this is NOT the most important point at all.

This means that all the problems of the Wehrmacht would have been completely solved. A perfectly supplied Wehrmacht, a mobile one, with enough weaponry is a invincible one!

 

Back to the original topic about Albert Speer, I think that would have changed Germany's resource postion a lot. I don't know about the outcome of the war but with the genius of organization and improvization, Speer could have given Germany a well supplied and strong Wehrmacht. Definately a country that would have accomplished more.

 

Totally agree with Friedrich. Germany's success has been to attack unsuspecting or unprepared countries. The only thing saving Britain was the channel. The only true foe for Germany was Russia and the only way to defeat mother Russia was to strike fast and as Friedich pointed out to decapitate the government.

 

Of course Speer takes over when there is a recognised need for more war production. Speer did not make this policy, he implemented it. Speer in charge in 1939 would not have made one iota of difference: Hitler wanted a quick painless war with as little impact on the standard of living of the German people as possible. This is why Germany is still churning out womens cosmetics and nylon stockings in 1942. Speer also operated against the increasing allied bombing offensive, propelling him to adopt new ideas of manufacture. Germany also gained by slave labour forcibly conscripted from conquered territories - not available in 1939.

The German war economy remained a shambles even after Speer took over - all he could do was ameliorate some of the worst excesses. Women were ideologically prevented from working in factories, forcing the Germans to increasingly rely on unwilling foreign workers and Concentration camp inmates drummed up by organisation Todt. This again could only be done politically when things started to get desperate.

Jumbo

 

Well, not quite.

The German economy was completely designed for war. Thanks, Herr Göring!

With Speer there in 1939, Poland and France would have been nearly the same, but in "Barbarossa" there surely would have been far more equippment available and that means a lot. We attacked with 17 Panzer divisions and 14 Motorised divisions. With more production, thanks to Speer it could have been 25 Panzer division and 20 motorised divisions. Which means that there were enough tanks for all army groups. There would have been enough aeroplanes to support all army groups. There would have been lorries and half-tracks for the infantry divisions and they would have been more mobile and therefore, more effective. With more vehicles, the supplies would have been better distributed and carried. All that means that all the main problems of "Barbarossa" are being solved. This means no Kiev diversion and a fall of Moscow in November 1941... Victory.

 

I'd have to agree with Jumbo on this one. Again, until the germans encountered the T-34 and the defeats in Russia, Hitler saw NO NEED for an increase in production. They would not have made many more tanks only because Speer was there- they would have made more tanks when they needed them, which was 1941. The geermans did have plans for a heavy tanks early; but like PzJgr says, it was not until the T-34 was encountered that Hitler decreed that the Tiger needed to mount the 88 and have at least 80mm front armor. These decisions were a result of russian experiences.

Not unless Hitler decided so. And Hitler was convinced the war in russia would be over by the winter, hence the lack of winter clothing or provisions.
With the benefit of looking back, WE can see that Hitler and needed more and better equipment. But we must remember that at the time, Hitler himself did not think this. The germans thought they were unbeatable, so why would they have increased production?
And Jumbo brings up a great point- the quality of many german munitions were very bad during the war because of slave labor. References are made throughout many works to german ammunition being duds, equipment breaking down, etc.
And finally, no matter what Speer did, he could not influence the materials available to germany. Make more tanks- with what steel? What copper would be used for the wiring? And once these thousands more tanks were produced, where would they get gas? Thousands more airplanes would be great, but who would fly them? Just like the raw materials, Speer could not have produced more soldiers.
Friedrich, I hardly think adding a few tanks and planes would make the Wehrmacht invincible! Germany never could have outdone the production of the US and USSR COMBINED! Not even close...

 

Of course Germany could not even have the same ammount of weaponry than the USSR, not to say the USA's... Because both were gigantic industries.

The men are no problem. At least in 1941. There are men and time to train them.

Perhaps there is some right points in that of the T-34 and so, stuff... But you are again thinking in the tactical level, not the strategic one. You all most know that the weaponry does not make any difference in cases like this. And certainly, Albert Speer would have put the German industry for mass production, because it will become the production cheaper, and the Führer would have loved that. The fuel and iron: Sweden and Romania. If we could get fuel and iron in 1945 in 1941: please!!! Those are just tactical insignificances. What I am talking about is that a mobile and adequatelly supplied Wehrmacht would have smashed anything which stood before it.

 

OK, Friedrich, so even despite the fact that the germans did not have enough fuel and resources in 1945, you claim somehow they would have in 41? How?

What??? That just makes no sense! If that's the case, they why would Speer have mattered??? So it made no difference that the russians had a tank in mass production that could beat anything the germans fielded?

Again, since Hitler thought there was no need for that, there would have been no increase in production. Not to mention that producing more would not be cheaper (???). Producing one PzIV cost about 116,000 RM; producing two would cost 232,ooo RM. Simpole math. You seem to forget that part.

Actually, those are materials REQUIRED to make weapons. Throughout the war, germany could never produce enough fuel for its tanks and planes. How would they have changed that?
You are clearly ignoring some simple facts of production. Wars are not won with morale and better tactics. That's why the germans lost! Wars are won by producing more war material- exactly why russia and the US won.

You started this thread wondering about how Speer could have improved production to help the germans; now you're saying that production dosen't matter???
I guess you answered your own "What If?"...

[ 06 August 2002, 04:57 PM: Message edited by: CrazyD88 ]

 

No, definately no, crazy. You are misunderstanding all here.

Weaponry do not make any difference in the tactic level you were seing this thread at the beginning. If the Panther or the Tigger this... bla, bla.

You must remember that British and French tanks were far more better than the Germans in 1940. And what won there? Superior tactics and strategy.

We all point out stupid things about if the K98 was worse than the Garand, etc. But a simple rifle or a simple tanks do not make the difference in a war. Weaponry quantities do make a difference somehow. And now because of overwhelming the enemy. To win you need to use the best tactics and have just enough resources to do it, and I do not mean that overwhelm the enemy is "enough".

And precisely Mathemathics apply here, a Pz IV 232.000 RM, 10 Pz IV mass produced would have costed 150.000 RM. That would not have affected the German people's lives and Speer could have made the Führer to agree with this.

I am not saying that Tigers in 1941 or so would have changed the outcome of the war, because it is just a weapon; a tactic little detail. But a mechanised Wehrmacht, with more tanks and vehicles is not a tactic detail, but a strategic improvement.

Certainly, Europe is not a very adequate place to get natural resources from. But the iron and fuel of Europe would have been enough to win a short war, in 1941, as I have said many times...

 

Just adding a litle fuel to this conversation.

Germans made great tanks but like everything german it was of highest quality. A tiger cost a lot and it took time to make one. Then again one T 34 was easy to make and so on cheaper, and probably not more problems with motor etc. ( Just think about the panther ). This must have been one of the key questions.Cheaper and faster and at least as effective.What saved germans here for a long time was the heavy armor of tigers and 88. Also germans were probably the best in repairing their tanks. Tanks like jagdpanther were simpler to make and saved manhours.

For war you need reliability, effectiveness and a great number of items. As germans lost a tiger, the crew couldn´t know if they could get a new tiger, but the russians knew there would be a new T34!!germans should have changed their way of thinking as well to succeed. No complicated methods, just easy, fast,cheap and strong!

 

Kai

I'd have to disagree that everything was made to the highest quality. As the war progressed quality control fell by the wayside: partially due to poor labour, partially through shoddier raw materials and partially through panic.

The Germans had trouble with overcomplex designs and requirements. How many prime movers and half tracks did Germany employ in WW2? Standardisation was a terrific problem as were overlapping agencies and internal politics. The German economy was not geared for war in 1939 by Goring. This is a myth.

There was little or no stockpiling of raw materials, the synthetic fuiel plants could not cover German Fuel needs in 1939 never mind by 1944. Mobilisation of labour was haphazard and many key workers got called up by the army. speer provided a bureaucratic framework to try to get some of the problems sorted out but as Crazy points out, only when there is a recognition - somewhat late in the day - that Total War is upon them.

Bumbling, unprepared Britain had been looking at factory conversion and industrial policies for war as early as 1936 allowing Britain to use her industries far more efficiently that Germany without recourse to forced slave labour.

Jumbo

 

Thanx jumbo, you´re absolutely right.

After Stalingrad germans were really suffering with supply problem. The quality of clothing even for soldiers was fast going down.(For waffen SS though I think only the best was offered) Not talking about plastic.So it was even worse for others as things like Tigers probably couldn´t be built from cheaper materials. And the man hours for one tank...I daren´t guess but it was alot.

One of Speer´s secrets was ( to my knowledge ) bulding small factory complexes around the reich, and probably more efficient usage of "slaves". For instance Himmler in his 10/43 speech regrets the loss of masses of slaves due to bad treatment.Speer´s work was at its best in autumn 1944 right before the battle of the bulge. Sad though that many of the aeroplanes were useless due to the limited petrol reserves. On 1 january a thousand luftwaffe planes flew and bombed the allied airfields, and many hundred were lost due to fact that they did not have enough petrol. As the Reich started to get smaller, also Speer´s work started crumbling.