Discussion in 'What If - European Theater - Eastern Front & Balka' started by von_noobie, Apr 13, 2012.
As the aim of Fall Blau was the Caucasus,all this has no importance .
I recall reading that the objects of operation Blau practically had been met by late summer but because the operation was going well Hitler decided to add two new objects: Stalingrad and the deeper caucasus area.
I have been trying to find the new Hitler order in the net but was not able to do so. Wonder if someone else has, or has the orders in a separate book?
Securing the Caucasus depended on establishing a secure flank along the Volga-Don and dealing with the obvious Soviet countermove, an offensive towards Rostov. The Germans had no need to cross the Volga or Don or to capture the city of Stalingrad.
Hey guys I have a question?What if Hitler had invaded and occupied Turkey and invaded the Soviet Union from the South Caucasus occupying the soviet states of Georgia, Armenia and Azerbaijan?
Would the cutting off of any oil coming from that area(Baku I and II, surrounding) hurt the Soviet Union since s vast majority of Soviet Tanks, Planes and Vehicles would not be fueled? Also it was mentioned on this thread that a bigger portion of oil fueled the factories rather than coal.
1) The possibility for Germany to invade the SU AND at the same time to go through Turkey to the Caucasus was inexistant .
2 ) It is more than dubious that the fall of Baku would have as result that the majority of the Soviet tanks, aircraft and trucks would have no fuel : this is a wrong assumption starting from the wrong assumption that the fall of Baku would hurt the SU, while the correct starting point is : how many oil did need the SU and how many % of this was needed by the armed forces .
3 ) During the war, the Soviet evonomy (as were the others ) was operating on coal .
LJad, get off the forum. Your opinion is no longer valid. All you do is twist, bend and turn against any facts to your disliking. From now on, anything you say will be discredited until another credited member agrees with you.
As usual when some one is unable to reply, he is raving . All you do is invent and launch hot-air balloons who do not resist to even a superficial examination, and than you are shouting and roaring : you know nothing about Turkey, about the Balkans about the railways in these regions , about the Soviet economy in wartime, you are arguing on the level of History Channel . .
No. You have a history of contradicting yourself when it comes to presenting facts. Most notable example is my Alan Turing thread. Even the admin called you out on it. I like how you also furthered my point further when you ignored the part where it said I won't agree with you unless someone expresses a similar point. Also I never said I knew about the Balkans. I will accept if I am wrong, but not from someone who has a notorious history of lacking credibility. So unless someone has an opinion similar to yours, you have no credibility whatsoever.
I see : you don't know that to occupuy Turkey the Germans had to go through the Balkans .
As usual, you start with a loaded IF : what if Germany had occupied Turkey;without doing the needed research if it was possible for the Germans to occupuy Turkey .
Your if is on the same level of the one from Mjölnir who was talking about a Japanese invasion of South Africa .
You did the same about Turing :instead of asking 2 questions
did Turing break the German code
was this important for the war effort
you said : Turing did break the German code and this was important for the war effort,and than : you asked :was this importance exaggerated .?
I find this very suspicious ,and this is an euphemism . It is an attempt to prevent a serious discussion and to force us to endorse what you are saying .
Now, you do the same : my conclusion is that you are not interested in a discussion but that you are only search for disciples who are saying yes to all your claims .
An IF is not a claim .
LJAd is right on all three points. We have discussed the value of Baku for USSR and Germany on several occasions. The USSR had a plan to destroy Baku oilfields if the danger existed that Baku fell in German hands. Let me remind you that Germans have captured the oilfields of Maykop but they were rendered unusable before they fell into German hands. Germans couldn't use a single barrel of Russian oil. "Ingenious" Göring has proposed to the German expert group the use of a gigantic korkscrew to re-open cemented bores. On the other hand USSR had alternative oilfields where production has increased during the war whilst the oilfields of baku were abandoned. The plan to utilize the Russian oilfields was doomed from the very beginning. Stalin knew that - Hitler learned that after the failure of the operation Blau..
Ah thank you Tamino, just when I thought that all credibility was gone, and this forum fell into shambles, you came in and saved the day. I told LJad(yet he ignores what I even said) that he would only be validated by what he says if another credible member supports him, and I thank you for your reply.
I read some thoughts by Wolfram Freiherrr von Richthofen ( Luftlotte 4 ) and he was quite angry when the invaded area was at its peak, he had to cover with his planes the area of the Reichin the east...That wouls have been a miracle, I guess.
Some kinda comparison of forces at the start of Blue:The Luftwaffe concentrated its largest single force since Barbarossa. Of the 2,690 aircraft supporting Case Blue, 52 per cent (1,400) were under the command of Richthofen. A further 265 Romanian, Hungarian, Italian and Slovak aircraft were also present. Opposing them were 2,800 aircraft (900 in reserve) including 1,200 fighters of the southern VVS front. To the north, the Soviets had been convinced the main attack was to come against Moscow owing to the German deception planOperation Kremlin.
Could Hitler have any kind of air supremacy even...
Pilot quality and quality of aircraft, plus local conditions will play a factor beyond counting bayonets, or as in this case props as demonstrated by the Battle of Britain.