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What if... Italy had found the Oil under Libya?

Discussion in 'What If - Mediterranean & North Africa' started by Von smallhousen, Feb 23, 2011.

  1. LJAd

    LJAd Well-Known Member

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    About the KC of Ruge : it is obvious that he received this for his actions in the Channel and the Northsea, and that he did not receive a KC in october 1940 for something that happened 6 months before (Weserübung ) .

    Ruge arrived in the West on 10 november 1943 with as mission to improve the security of the Northsea and Channel coasts outside Germany , something which was an insult to the local commander (Krancke ) .


    No reasons are available why he left the West in 1942 for an other less important mission, but the obvious explanation was disgrace .

    What was he doing in France in 1943/1944 except intrigueing to have a better position ? He had a diary where he was writing things that, if known, would harm the reputation of other persons;after the war he adapted (= falsified ) his diary to protect Speidel with whom he worked at Himmerod (jobs for the boys ) .
     
  2. Takao

    Takao Ace

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    The Type XXI was revolutionary, but it was not a "wonder weapon"...it was, in reality a "rush job", which is why the Germans made such a mess of it. Sure, it looked good "on paper", but this was not a paper war the Germans were fighting. The Type XXI was rushed into production with little pre-planning and no prototypes - Yes, it was based on the Type XVIII, but there were significant changes between the two classes - and the Type XXI suffered accordingly. The Germans had planned to have 381 XXIs commissioned by May 1, 1945, however, only 118 XXIs in commission, 2 had done war patrols, and another 11-13 were almost ready for combat. Heck...some 60 alone were destroyed on the ways by Allied bombers.

    The Type XXIII was most assuredly a "wonder weapon"...You wonder why the Germans built such a thing, but then I remember...Desperation. The Type XXIII had less range than the majority of the Type IIs, so the Type XXIIIs basically went to the coast of England and came back. The you have to consider the armament of the Type XXIII...and entire, vast...Two torpedoes. The Type XXIIIs were not worth the time and effort for only two torpedoes, even the Type IIs could carry 5 torpedoes.

    So, yes, the Kriegsmarine had become irrelevant when they failed to prevent the Allied build up in England in 1943 and when they failed to prevent the Normandy landings. After that, the Kreigsmarine was just marking time, while waiting to die honorably or surrender, whichever came first.

    Churchill was possibly worried about the U-Boats in 1940-41, but by 1944-45 that fear had evaporated.


    How does whatever knowledge that Ruge had about submarine translate into his knowledge about defending against an amphibious assault?


    What does that have to do with the price of tea in China? Other than he might have been a co-conspirator in the July 20th plot.


    I see that you do not have much experience with LJAd.

    Your better of not asking for sources, he does not provide them. At best, you will get a word or three, and then you have to sift through Google, only to find out the source was mis-quoted or mis-represented.

    It is a lot less hassle to simply conclude that LJAd is quoting his own fantasies, and go about your business.
     
  3. LJAd

    LJAd Well-Known Member

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    The Ruge Ohne Gewehr is presenting us does not exist .

    The brilliant naval officer was wasting his time in subordinate functions


    The friend of the "resistant " Rommel was as resistant as Rommel : if certain things had been known about Ruge, he never would have become IG of the KM , US help or not : it was the same Ruge who wrote (about his experiences in Libau during WWI)where textile was dominated by Jews :

    "Damals hatte man die Zusammenhange der Rassenfrage noch nicht genügend erkannt and liess den Juden weiter verdienen " . "The Jews could continue to make money ": Dr Goebbels would have approved .

    One can wonder why the US embassy was insisting on the appointment of Ruge : maybe the CIA knew about the political convictions of Ruge, and his accomplice Speidel .


    Source (certain people will say that this source is only a phantasy ):

    Cuxhaven-seiten .de : Friedrich Oscar Ruge (lucky for him that his father was that prescient not to name his son Friedrich Adolph, the DDR propaganda would have a good time )Militär,Stadtpolitiker und Autor (Autor means here : someone who is skilful and industrious in the rewriting of his diaries ).
     
  4. green slime

    green slime Member

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    So, from pre-War Oil in Libya being found, to a discussion on the merits or lack thereof of type XXI and XXIII submarines, (and thanks to LJAd the jews of Libau).

    To celebrate this, I present to you all, an image of one of the many trucks Germany did not need:

    [​IMG]
     
  5. belasar

    belasar Court Jester Staff Member

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    If you are going to insist we remain on topic we may have to ask you to leave the thread! :whip:
     
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  6. OhneGewehr

    OhneGewehr New Member

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    Where are you from? U-Boats who? My english is bad, but not this bad.
    https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/U-Boot-Klasse_XXI
    With source.

    I am sure, you will find excuse nr.327 for your wrong statement.

    No, Ruge had nothing better to do:
    "Täglich saß Ruge an Rommels Bett im Lazarett von Le Vésinet, Rommels nächster Station, und las dem Patienten aus Büchern vor. Rommel flüsterte ihm zu, er müsse unbedingt zu Hitler, um mit ihm über Deutschlands Zukunft zu reden. Am 24. Juli notierte Ruge: "Er sagte wieder, daß er dringend Hitler persönlich Vortrag halten wolle, um seine Auffassung (Frieden im Westen) vorzubringen, denn irgend jemand müsse es ihm sagen."

    http://www.spiegel.de/spiegel/print/d-40607128.html

    The Kriegsmarine had almost disappeared in France and the invasion was past.
     
  7. RichTO90

    RichTO90 Well-Known Member

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    Naw, just sit back and enjoy the LJad crazytrain, its a bumpy ride, and gets nowhere fast.
     
  8. green slime

    green slime Member

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    LOL!
     
  9. Takao

    Takao Ace

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    Finish the quote please...


    Now is this true? Or is Churchill following his penchant for exaggerations when making a point...

    FYI, the source is Winston Churchill's "The Second World War, Volume 6 "Triumph and Tragedy", pg 435. Which, IIRC, was published some years after the end of the war.

    Of course, the crux of the matter is, as Churchill states...
    The Type XXI did not arrive in service early, nor did it arrive in large numbers. Further, Churchill ignores the several faults in the Type XXIs, and also ignores the many Allied developments in Allied ASW tactics & technologies.
     
  10. Takao

    Takao Ace

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    https://youtu.be/03Nq632eV6I?t=218

    Train Wreck!
     
  11. belasar

    belasar Court Jester Staff Member

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    Anyone questioning the quality of moderation on this thread will be severely punished! :)
     
  12. Takao

    Takao Ace

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    Not questioning it...Quite the contrary...I am enjoying it.

    Reminds me of my first biplane flight, a roller coaster without rails.
     
  13. belasar

    belasar Court Jester Staff Member

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    Damn, I wanted to see some punishment!
     

    Attached Files:

  14. Takao

    Takao Ace

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    Why is it that only non-family-friendly-forum responses are running through my head right now...
     
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  15. LJAd

    LJAd Well-Known Member

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    US opinion about the U Boat XXI

    Poor structural integrity

    Underpowered diesel engines

    Impractical hydraulic system

    Imperfect and hazardous snorkel

    Snorkeling in the Type XXI was therefore a nightmarish experience,to be minimized to the greatest extent possible .

    Source : The Hunters (Clay Blair ) Foreword P XI

    And on P XIII : the U Boats and torpedoes were not technical marvels but rather inferior craft and weapons unsuited for the Battle of the Atlantic .
     
  16. LJAd

    LJAd Well-Known Member

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    As the diaries of Ruge are very unreliable, the quote from Der Spiegel is not something that has a historical value .
     
  17. Takao

    Takao Ace

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    Those were Blair's opinions, not "US" opinions. One of his few failures in the books.

    Structural integrity varied from XXI to XXI, but this was the result of the declining working conditions in late-war Germany, and not the fault of the design it's self. FYI, in post-war trials the US collapsed a Type XXI, U-2513, at 274 meters, the British collapsed one of theirs at a depth of 243 meters. So, the structural integrity of the XXI was fairly good, just not a vast improvement over previous types of U-Boats.

    The "Underpowered diesel engines", or more to the point, failed superchargers in the new engine, was a very minor problem. The Type XXI was not meant to be on the surface for extended periods of time, so high speed on the surface was not necessary. Further, the expected battery recharge time of one hour was an overly optimistic estimate.

    Impractical hydraulic system, was only a problem on the early boats, as the system was taken directly from the Type XVIII, and was compatible with the Type XXI design. The redesigned hydraulics system on later boats was a major improvement. So, this is a non-issue.

    Snorkeling is always hazardous...Worth noting that the US quickly added snorts to their boats post-war.
     
  18. RichTO90

    RichTO90 Well-Known Member

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    Why are they "unreliable"? Details please of the unreliable bits. Yes, his postwar memoir is unreliable in parts - he was not actually at various meetings as he implies - but why doubt the reliability of his diary entries at the time? Who was he trying to fool? Himself?
     
  19. OhneGewehr

    OhneGewehr New Member

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    Forget it.
    He never answers to questions he (or she?) doesn't like.
    Where is he from? Which sources?

    Ruge couldn't be everywhere and in every Navy of the war. He wrote his books in the 50ies or 60ies, when even Bletchley Park was a hardly known fact. But what i like about his books is that he explains, what naval warfare is about and not only what happened. But when someone explains why something happened, you are often leaving the base of sheer facts.

    Why was the small Royal Navy superior in the Mediterranean, why could a small Navy like the german could cause so many problems for a few years etc.
     
  20. LJAd

    LJAd Well-Known Member

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    He has been accused by Irving to have edited his diaries to protect Speidel and Rommel . I know who Irving is, but the fact is that Irving had no reason to attack Ruge (one should expect the opposite ) , given some other facts as that when inteerogated after the war, he claimed that he left Italy because he was sick, and later he said that the reason was that he opposed the German invasion of Italy,one should not have much faith in Ruge .


    An other fact is that the US embassy in Germany told Adenauer that the US would not object to the nomination of Ruge as IG : translation = the US wanted Ruge .

    Given the fact that his military career was less than brilliant, it is obvious that the US wanted him for other reasons; it is the same for Speidel . Given the semi colonial status of Germany in 1955, the German government would obey the "suggestions " from Washington .
     

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