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What if:--Nazi Germany vs. Imperial Japan

Discussion in 'What If - Other' started by Fire_spit, Sep 9, 2004.

  1. Chesehead121

    Chesehead121 Member

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    I'd say Germany. If they managed to get to America and take it, they might have gotten to the plans for the atomic bomb. And we know what they can do.
     
  2. JagdtigerI

    JagdtigerI Ace

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    .....as I said, it should at least have some basis in fact or else it is just nonsense and quite difficult to discuss ;)
     
  3. Chesehead121

    Chesehead121 Member

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    Few questions:
    First: Where would they meet? If it's in Japan the Japanese have defensive bunkers, as we Americans found out the hard way :/ But if it was in Russia, the Germans would have thought of the winter uniforms (FINALLY!!!) while the Japanese.......didn't have any.
    Second: Umm, why would they do that when they could merge nations? I mean, MAYBE they mgiht have thought of that before jumping to another world war? Both Germany and Japan might have been a little sick of it by then, doncha think?
    Third: Would Germany have the bomb? Japan was only looking into death rays and other weird weapons that probably will never work practically for decades even now. and Japan would surrender under a hail of nuclear weapons.
    Now for scenarios:
    If 1 was Russia, 2 was out of the question, and 3 was yes, Germany. Again, the nuclear thing.
    If 1 was Japan, 2 was again out of the question and will be for all scenarios (so just ignore it) and 3 was no, then Japan. Tanks are very hard to island-hop with, and mobility is a huge part of any invasion.
    1 Russia, 3 no, Germany. Technology would rule here, as they are on the Russian steppe, notoriously good territory for tanks. And seeing has Japan didn't need tanks until now, they probably weren't well developed.
    I think that's it. Then again, there is one more.
    1 Russia, 3 no, #2 theory may just win out. A long war might hurt 2 countries that had just been neck-deep in horseradish so they may have just decided to get along anyway....... Aaaah, sort of nice endings........ :')
     
  4. lwd

    lwd Ace

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    Precisely the point I was trying to make. Or at least one of them. :)
     
  5. D-Day Man

    D-Day Man Member

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    I bet Germany would end up defeating Japan but at a great cost. I mean both countries have their kinks and weak spots. Germany would have more casualties than Japan because the Japanese would keep fighting to the death and Germany well would not. So Germany has a more powerful army but Japan has greater determination than Germany.
     
  6. Hufflepuff

    Hufflepuff Semi-Frightening Mountain Goat

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    There would be serious logistical issues for both sides, but if the Axis powers had to face off the Germans would have dominated thier allies.
     
  7. lwd

    lwd Ace

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    Not at sea. Perhaps not in certain other environments.
     
  8. schweinegrippe

    schweinegrippe recruit

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    Fascinating idea, I googled it out of sheer curiosity and having run into these forums several times in the past, just decided to register to contribute (couldn't resist bumping).

    I think there's a book that covers it, I think it's called something like "The Man In The High Castle" if I'm not mistaken.

    As early as the late 50s or early 60s I believe a standoff between Germany and Japan would have certainly been possible. Germany would easily have developed a bomb by that time, and as early as the end of the war they had planes that could reach the Home Islands (albeit one-way). The submarines on both sides had the greatest range of them all, and that would have only gotten larger.

    Suppose the Third Reich's racially fueled Europa couldn't seem to compromise with Hirohito's PAC over resources, say, in the Middle East? Unlike cooler Russian and American leaders, it isn't difficult to assume that these two had little trouble jumping the gun. I would imagine a localized, maybe to the point of proxy warfare in the Persian Gulf (and perhaps in and around Central America as well), marked by strategic bombing and small-scale land and naval skirmishes.
     
  9. Guaporense

    Guaporense Dishonorably Discharged

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    Germany was 100 times stronger than Japan in 1940. To say that Japan could defeat Germany is evidence of ignorance of the history of ww2.
     
  10. Guaporense

    Guaporense Dishonorably Discharged

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    1- The US lost 100.00 men in Japan, killed 1.000.000 Japs.

    2- The US lost 300.000 in Germany, killed 150.000 Germans.


    Figure it out....
     
  11. T. A. Gardner

    T. A. Gardner Genuine Chief

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    Exactly how many Germans surrendered to the US and Britain prior to Germany herself surrendering in May 1945?

    How many surrendered in North Africa?
    How many in the Falaise pocket?
    How many in the Ruhr pocket?
    How many by February 1945 in the Ardennes?
    Now, if those Germans had fought to the death what would the count be?
     
  12. Devilsadvocate

    Devilsadvocate Ace

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    Do you just make these numbers up, or do you have a source?

    According to most sources, total American battle deaths in WW II were about 291,000. This does not include Merchant Marine losses which were almost 9,000, so a good round figure for American battle deaths in WW II is 300,000. As for 1,000,000 Japanese being killed in the Pacific in combat against the Americans, I'd really like to know where that number came from.

    And according to Richard Frank in "Downfall" Allied deaths against the Japanese in the Pacific (not Japan which was never invaded) per 1,000 men in combat per day were two and a half times the deaths incurred in combat against the Germans when calculated on the same basis.
     
  13. ickysdad

    ickysdad Member

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    I tell you what let's just give Hitler the benefit of the doubt and give him his Z Plan to be completed by say 1945??? 1946??? and let them base it at Pearl Harbor or Ceylon or even Singapore. Now let's have Japan have thier historical fleet plus probably an extra couple of Yamato's but of course we know the Japanese have a Kido Butai (but on steroids with extra construction by 1945 or 1946!!!) whilst the Kriegsmarine has maybe a couple of Graf Zeppeliens. It might be interesting just how long the Z Plan fleet lasts. As far as armies well throw the Panzers out the window simply because the Germans don't have the landing crasft to get them ashore or the amphib expierence/capability to capture heavily fortified islands. Of course Panzers can attack across East Asia right? Well even if they have access to the Siberian railway their logistics suck as per Barbarossa. As far as airforces well if the Luftwaffe thought the English Channel was a water barrier and the '109 lacked range for the Battle of Britain...Well?????
     
  14. lwd

    lwd Ace

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    My guess is they'd last quite a while... There's very little oxygen at the bottom of the Marianna's trench .... would take quite a while for thick armor plate to rust away down there.
     
  15. Mauser25

    Mauser25 Member

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    If this were to happen I think that Nazi Germany would win. They have better training and supplies, like what other people have said it would depend on where. If it was in germany, I think i would be be in favore of germany. Imperial Japan has little to no supplies and alot less training. If iit took place it Japan, I still think Nazi Germany would win but the losses would mount very quickly. Nazi germany never had any experience in jungle warfare.
     
  16. schweinegrippe

    schweinegrippe recruit

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    I would also imagine that the Russian conscripts fighting on behalf of Germany would be undoubtedly superior to the pathetically ill-trained and ill-equipped Manchurian conscripts.
     
  17. ickysdad

    ickysdad Member

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    Ok just how is Germany going to project power to the Pacific when she has no bases in that part of the world?
     
  18. Guaporense

    Guaporense Dishonorably Discharged

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    Elis, Statistical data WW2

    Also, this site:

    Map - Losses in World War Two

    [​IMG]

    Every square is 100.000 death.

    For the Asian theater:

    [​IMG]

    Total american death were 407.000 (of with 300.000 battle deaths). The British lost about 400.000. The British-American forces were equivalent in terms of equipment, but the British had more military tradition :)p).

    Against the Japs, total Anglo-Allied deaths were around 100.000. Against the Germans total death count would be 700.000, roughly 350.000 Germans died fighting the allies (of with, 28.000 in submarines, 12.000 in africa, 55.000 in Italy, 130.000 in the western front, 65.000 in the air war, rough total: 290.000~, plus a few tens of thousands in other theaters).

    Total German military deaths were 3.25 million (2.3 million KIA). 90% of them in the USSR.

    Sure, there was bloddy fighting on those islands. The Japs lost more men for every division than the Soviets.
     
  19. Guaporense

    Guaporense Dishonorably Discharged

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    Thats how Germany would defeat Japan:

    1- Hitler's best pal, Stalin, rents a few railroads and areas in eastern soviet union to Germany.

    2- They make 300 u-boats and deploy them from Vladivostok. Japan's merchant marine has 5.2 million tons, a third of the size of the English merchant marine. The U-boats cam sunk that fleet in a matter of months.

    3- Them, they attack Manchuria and China, destroying the Japanese army in a few weeks, with a classic doudle pincer envelopment.

    Japan is a country dependent on imports, without their merchant marine they will surrender, since they cannot make anything with their local mineral and natural resources (and the IJN depends of imports of OIL, with came though the merchant marine). It would be almost easier than defeating Poland. The US took so long to defeat Japan for 4 reasons:

    1- Because Americans had to learn the art of war during WW2.

    2- Mobilization took 3 years (from 1940 to 1943), in 1939 the US armed forces were weaker than the Hungarian's. Also, the US allocated its resources poorly, for example, they build a dozen useless vessels called battleships. The atom bomb was a waste of 2 billion dollars. Instead, they could make more submarines (the US had more dockyards than Germany, so they could make much more, like 500 submarines per year instead of wasting money on Iowas), the best weapon of maritime war (in terms of cost/benefit analysis).

    3- Difficult strategic position (cross the pacific) and the fact the they had an enemy 100 stronger than Japan to care about.

    4- Last, but not least, lack of military tradition, connected with point 1.
     
  20. Guaporense

    Guaporense Dishonorably Discharged

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    About 600-700 thousand.

    Instead of 700.000 Allies vs 350.000 Germans it would be about 850.000 allies and 1 million German deaths.
     

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