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What If? - Stalin Lets Tukhachevsky Head Development of the Red Army

Discussion in 'What If - European Theater - Eastern Front & Balka' started by arca, Jun 15, 2013.

  1. mjölnir

    mjölnir New Member

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    The French and British had a hell of a time redeploying to try to stop the sickel cut with complete German air superiority, despite the fact that France had more planes when it surredered than when the campaign started and the British had flown in 100 Hurricanes and the 1940 LW was a joke compared to the allied air force supporting Patton and Monty.

    Rundstedt simply could not move his "reserves" in time and without being blown up by fighter-bombers, twin engine bombers or carpet bombing.
    Moreover, in contrast to the meager use of artillery during Blitzkrieg in France and for the Panzer divisions in Barbarossa, Patton had formidable SP and field artillery.
    Even after Patton was repeatedly halted for lack of supplies (which were going to Monty), the Germans never had much to throw in front of him during the pause and he always took off rapidly. In contrast, Monty never learnt to advance rapidly, paused even after carpet bombing blasted a big swathe for nim and the Germans had plenty of time to reorganize and reinforce.
    The incredible thing is that despite all that air superiority, naval and field artillery, armor, AT guns and infantry, Monty took so long to take Caen and that Eisenhower did not sack him.

    The Tigers were few and slow and required strong bridges, which were few could be destroyed by planes (or engineers during the bulge). There were also few Panthers and the Germans had nothing as fast as the Hellcat tank destroyer, which was redeployed very fast to attack a Panther column in the battle of the bulge.
    The WM relied mostly on Pz IV and STUG III in France & Bagration and relatively few of them, completely inadequate against thousands of Shermans and T-34 and huge air forces.
    Imagine how fast Guderian, Kleist. Höpner and Hoth would have advanced during Barbarossa, had they been supported by the 14,000 strong allied planes and the large number of trucks in France, instead of by 2,800 underpowered planes and limited logistics..

    With Monty's supplies, Patton would have penetrated deep into Germany months earlier, forcing the Soviets to advance even faster, shortening the war and reducing American casualties considerably.
     
  2. green slime

    green slime Member

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    1) Calm down lad. It's a common teen phantasy...

    2) Or not.
     
  3. lwd

    lwd Ace

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    It wasn't "complete German air superiority)" that cause issues with the redeployment indeed the Germans didn't have it.

    Movement of reserves isn't affected much by carpet bombing that has to be planned out too far in advance to catch unit moving. Likewise fighter bombers weren't as affective as you seam to believe.

    If you are trying to convince us that your what if's are reasonable you are doing a very poor job of it. If on the other hand you are trying to convince us you don't know what you are talking about you are doing a fantastic job.

    Here is a clue by the way. The reason this board has a what if section (if I remember correctly) is that a reasonable well constructed what if can teach one a lot about history. This is due in large part to people supporting their positions with historical facts and logic. Your what if's not only fail the "reasonable" part but you have almost completely failed to support your positions with facts or logic.
     
  4. mjölnir

    mjölnir New Member

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    It was definitely complete air superiority which wiped out entire French tank and fuel supply units while refueling in Belgium and France, en route to counter attack during the Sickle cut.

    Carpet bombing by hundreds or even 1,000 planes wiped out entire Panzer divisions, reinforcement-supply convoys, bridges, RR, roads, fuel and munitions depots, trains, etc, within a large area. Even relatively small bombs can do enormous damage by the tens of thousands (they even killed hundreds of allies repeatedly). Fighter bombers (Typhoons, Tempest, P-47, etc,) with heavy rockets (rather inaccurate but scary as hell) caused entire Panzer units to abandon their vehicles and flee. a P-38 in a shallow dive placed a large bomb smack on the door of the German HQ in Normandy, another shallow diving P-38 placed a Napalm pickle in the ventilation system of the fort in Cherbourg, causing the stubborn German defenders to surrender immediately, another dive bombing P-38 destroyed a Tiger attacking Patton's Black tankers, fighter-bombers killed Wittman in his Tiger within days of his arrival at the front in Normandy (after surviving years in the USSR and blowing up a lot of allied tanks and vehicles), planes almost killed Rommel, P-47, Typhoons, Mustangs, etc, destroyed thousands of trains and tens of thousands each of trucks, horse drawn carts and cars, vehicles hardly moved during the day and survived. The Germans had to rush at night and hide during the day.

    Some P-47 pilots found out that they could knock out tanks by flying very low and strafing with their 8 .50 caliber guns, so that the armor piercing bullets skipped on the ground and penetrated the weak bottom armor, killing the crew or damaging the engine or spilling and igniting fuel or detonating shells.

    A nut even mounted Bazookas on the wings of a plane a little larger than a Cub and knocked out a few tanks.

    Planes ruled in WW II.
     
  5. LJAd

    LJAd Well-Known Member

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    1 ) No :it wasn't

    2) there were no carpet bombings by 1000 planes

    3 ) Nonsense
     
  6. lwd

    lwd Ace

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    Sources please.

    Oh and even if you have them and they prove accurate about the losses that doesn't mean "it was definitely complete air superiority".
     
  7. lwd

    lwd Ace

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    ???
    Sources please.
    Your information appears to be very questionable.
    For instance Cherbourg was taken by 30 June. The first use of Napalm in Europe (and that by RAF Mosquitos) was on 14 July.

    Whitman wasn't killed by fighter bombers he was killed by a round from a Firefly.
     
  8. lwd

    lwd Ace

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    Taking out tanks by bouncing bullets off the ground is very questionable. I have yet to see any substantiation of it and indeed if one looks at the physics alone it is highly improbable.

    I'd like to see the source on the plane mounted Bazooka as well.
     
  9. mjölnir

    mjölnir New Member

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    this is from my aviation file, I'm sure you can google a source.
    [SIZE=8pt]Major Charles Carpenter (Bazooka Charlie, the Mad Major, Lucky Carpenter)[/SIZE][SIZE=8pt] installed 6 bazookas under the wings of his Piper Cub (Rosie the Rocketeer) and destroyed 6 German tanks in France in 1944. He faced a court-martial for arming the Cub, but general Patton saved him and awarded him the medal for valor. Some sources claim that Rosie the Rocketeer was not a Cub, but a slightly more powerful Stinson Sentinel. [/SIZE]

    [SIZE=8pt]this is a P-47 pilot speaking[/SIZE]

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Sj3Usgfhdls
     
  10. RichTO90

    RichTO90 Well-Known Member

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    No it wasn't.

    Data please on those Panzer divisions. Dates and which divisions. Along with what constitutes "wiped out".

    How heavy a bomb and how close did it need to be?

    How inaccurate were those rockets? Which were the "Panzer units" that abandoned their vehicles? Dates and units?

    As was already pointed out to you, napalm's first use was after Cherbourg fell, so the mad P-38 pilot was trying to kill Americans. Which happens, my Dad killed one of them.

    Wittman was not killed by "fighter bombers" and was killed nearly two months after arriving in Normandy.

    Where is your count on German truck casualties from? Its wrong.

    No, pilots claimed a lot, but what they actually achieved is different. Physics declares your claims to be idiotic.

    Yes, a nut did and then claimed to have done a lot with it. The problem is pilot's claims are a ratio to what they actually achieve as at least ten is to one.

    No. Air force's of all nation's claimed that, but the reality was different.
     
  11. George Patton

    George Patton Canadian Refugee

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    A parachuting US pilot allegedly shot down a Zero with a M1911A1. I propose we replace all US fighter aircraft with pilots descending from the sky via parachute brandishing Colt semiautomatics. One .45ACP slug per plane! A great return on investment! Much more efficient use of resources!
     
    RichTO90 likes this.
  12. lwd

    lwd Ace

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    I seam to recall he fired 3 rounds so lets give them a full clip no need to be cheap. :)
     

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