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What if The Axis poweres had a militiant ally in South or Central America?

Discussion in 'What If - European Theater - Western Front & Atlan' started by tinmanl19, Jan 20, 2008.

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  1. tinmanl19

    tinmanl19 Member

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    Suppose Mexico, Cuba, or Argantina, or more then one joined the Axis and was supplied with modern weapons and training officers from Germany, what effect would it have on the War?
    I feel that the most obvious change would be resupply bases for U boats, and in the case of a nazi friendly Mexico or Cuba direct air attacks from german and local air forces on US soil. This would redirect resourses from the european and pacific fronts. This would also endanger English possessions in the Region. I don't no that it would change the outcome of the war. It would definitely change the lenght of the war.
    The most serious change may be a ground assault into Texas from Mexico on say Dec 8th 1941.
     
  2. GrossBorn

    GrossBorn Member

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    I don't believe it would have altered the outcome of the war. Any country in South America would have been isolated from Germany and Japan by the combined efforts of the US and British navies. It would have been extremely hard for them to have any effect on the European or Pacific theaters of war. The only benefit to the Axis would be if their ally could have threatened North America and diverted US resources to blunt that threat. The best ally in that situation would have been Mexico. With such a threat on our southern border, it definitely would have turned the US's attentions to protect against any incursions and not reinforcing the European theater. It would have delayed Operation Torch in North Africa and the resulting Mediterranian and Italian campaigns. All in all, the landings in France in 1944 would have also been delayed resulting in a Red Europe with the Soviet Union overrunning Germany and Western Europe. Therefore, the biggest winner of a South American-Axis agreement would most likely have been the Soviet Union.
    That will make Sloniksp happy...:D He could hang the "Hammer & Sickle" from the Arc de Triomphe.
     
  3. PactOfSteel

    PactOfSteel Dishonorably Discharged

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    I know Hitler tried to persuade Mexico to go to war with us, but they would have got their butts kicked and I think they knew it.
     
  4. MManchester

    MManchester Member

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    I'll have to go back and check if I can remember which book it was in, but I believe that I read that there were some German agents captured in Mexico that were either trying to persuade them to join the nazi's or get permission to position troops there.

    Of course there were also German and Russian spies caught in the US so it might be somewhat speculative as to suggest their real motives IMO.
     
  5. Carl W Schwamberger

    Carl W Schwamberger Ace

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    Its not well written up, but if you search dilligently through the books you can find pieces. There was a long running war of diplomats, spies, agents, busnessmen, and occasionally sabatouers in South and Central America.

    A few years ago the Naval Institute Proceddings had a artical about the US Adm King becoming so concerned about Brazil making air bases available to the Luftwaffe he caused a plan to be made of invading Brazil and capturing the airfields on the north east coast. The assumption was the Luftwaffe would use these airfields for reconissance aircraft supporting the submarine raiders. It was even summrised that German airbourne battalions might be flown from Vichy French bases in Africa to help defend the reconissance bases. A corps sized amphibious exercise run on the Carolina coast in March 1942 was based partially on the Brazilian scenario.

    As it was Allied diplomatic pressure and economic inducments caused the Brazilian government to retire the pro German army officers and eventually Brazil declared war on German and sent a corps to fight in Italy. But in the desperate moments of the winter of 1941-42 it was thought best to be prepared for anything.
     
  6. PzJgr

    PzJgr Drill Instructor

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    Well, Argentina, Chile and Bolivia were so pro-facist that they might have as well been allies to Germany. They provided much of the foodstuffs and textiles for Germany. After the war, as we all now know, they provided sanctuary to those who got away. Like Spain, I would think that these South American countries would have been more valuable as non-belligerants to Germany.
     
  7. tinmanl19

    tinmanl19 Member

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    yes but this is what if right?, I am asking about what if they chose to9 fight!
     
  8. PactOfSteel

    PactOfSteel Dishonorably Discharged

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    I was watching the History channel late at night once and I remember they had a documentary about the missing/sunken U-boats. They found a sunken U-boat off the coast of Mexico, I also heard that someone found some swastika flags buried in Mexico as well.
     
  9. mikebatzel

    mikebatzel Dreadnaught

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    Mexico was vital to the US war effort. somthing like 35-40% of raw materials during the war came from Mexico. an often overlooked figure. I feel if Germany had wanted Mexico as an ally than they wouldn't have been sinking there ships(although some are claimed to be sunk by the US to get Mexico to declare war on the Axis). Any other Latin American country, IMHO would have mostly fought Mexico(with much allied suport) and not been to great a risk to the US. The most I see being diverted to defence in the area is a much larger force guarding the Panama Canal.
    Mike
     
  10. T. A. Gardner

    T. A. Gardner Genuine Chief

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    If you look at the US planning as early as 1938 for what was termed "Hemisphere Defense" if any nation in the Americas openly declared war in support of Germany (or Japan) and had entered the war even prior to the entry of the United States into the war that nation, along with Germany, would have been shortly at war with the US. That is, the US and nations friendly to the US in the Americas would have declared war on that nation.

    Taking Mexico as an example: Had they entered the war on the side of Germany the US would have invaded within weeks and taken the country. Mexico had (and has) a relatively small army and navy and both are ill-quipped to fight a modern war. Any other nation in the Americas would have faced similar circumstances; their small armed forces facing a huge US force within weeks of throwing into the war.
     
  11. Carl W Schwamberger

    Carl W Schwamberger Ace

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    The US has had a very long history of ensuring the Europeans (or Japanese) gain little military strength in Latin America. US military intervention has been frequent. From 1914 to 1928 both Haiti and Nicaragua were occupied by US combat units, and Mexico was briefly invaded in 1914. Grenada was invaded in the 1980s, and a plan for atacking Nicaragua was well advanced before being canceled.
     
  12. PzJgr

    PzJgr Drill Instructor

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    You can thank the Monroe Doctrine for that line of thinking.
     
  13. Sloniksp

    Sloniksp Ставка

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    Personally I think that Suriname, would have given the U.S. a run for her money! :lol:
     
  14. solarfox

    solarfox Member

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    I do think that while Germany or Japan could have allied with a south american country, the country would have to be relatively strong on it's own, or at least had a lot of people. If i was Germany i would have just used the ports and airfields in Mexio and gotten some Mexican and GErman troops to work together for surgical strikes against American industry. Don't forget, at that time the US was still relatively protected by the oceans. We only have two actual borders to protect, and canada was an ally of ours. So only Mexico posed a threat. We could have easily bashed them.
    With actual regards to your point. If they, say MExico, had gone to war with the US, the US and maybe some Candian forces would have quickly returned fire and defeated them, maybe we defend our boarders a little tougher, but i would almost assume that the US would form some sort of Boarder patrol, similar to what we have now, and have them guard the boarder. Then the regular troops can get back to the real war.
    Germany loses in the end, even if they divert our attention for a short while, three or four months at the most.
     
  15. JCFalkenbergIII

    JCFalkenbergIII Expert

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    And how would you suggest that the Germans would have gotten sufficient or ANY "modern weapons" in enough numbers to Latin America? The German Mechant ships? And What would the US Navy be doing?
     
  16. Carl W Schwamberger

    Carl W Schwamberger Ace

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    I can see few possibilites, which are long bets.

    1. German special ops. With the active support of a South American government large numbers of German agents and sabatouers get into the US. Historically the German effort at this was lame and most agents captured. To actually do any stratigic damage it would have required many hundreds of 'Sucessfull' agents.

    2. HIstorically the Germans managed to get a Luftwaffe squadron to Iraq. It bombed the British army for a few weeks, until the lack of logisitcs support grounded all the aircraft. Some Luftwaffe aircraft and crew could have been smuggled into a secretly friendly Mexico and made a few token raids on the US. This would have required the conivance of nuetral Spain as well as thats the only practical route for getting diassembled aircraft onto merchant ships and past the British blockade.

    3. The Admiral King scenario. Luftwaffe aircraft and ground combat battalions stage through Vichy colonys and base on Brazilian coastal airfields. From there they can harras Allied ships and recon for the German submarines.

    4. Submarine resupply. Placing smuggled in German crews on cargo ships purchased from nuetrals and converting them to armed raiders.

    5. Organizing pro nazi German nationals in Latin America to attack the US. The nazis actually tried this in the form of recruiting them as agents or sabatours. But as I remarked earlier the effort was a failure.

    Of course when the Allied intel people get the slightest hint of these ops they are going to be all over them in a search and destroy mode.
     
  17. Fallschirmjaeger

    Fallschirmjaeger Member

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    Maybe undercover small shipment private stuff. You never know.
     
  18. T. A. Gardner

    T. A. Gardner Genuine Chief

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    You might want to check out what happened to a number of German merchant ships that were in ports in places like Mexico when the war started. Note, I said when the war started...eg., September 1939. These were trapped in port. The US and Britain had local agents watching these ships. When, in some cases, they tried to go to sea and return to Germany they were, in every case, intercepted at sea and taken as prizes.
    When the US entered the war officially, several in US ports ended up as prizes as well.
    There is one case of a Japanese ocean liner being stopped in late 1939 and being boarded by the Royal Navy in international waters and a number of German passengers (who admittedly were KM technicians transiting to Japan to fix German merchant raiders) were taken off as Prisoners of war. This was abetted by the US who let Britain know these guys were on that ship when it left the US. This action by Britain is a gross violation of international laws of the sea and maritime tradition. Yet, they did it.
    Basically, Germany has little or nothing to realistically offer a nation in the Americas as a good reason for them to side with Germany in a war.
    As for Vichy bases, the US was closely monitoring French possessions in the Americas once that nation fell. There was a French naval squadron in Martinque for example that included the carrier Bearn. The US basically told the French to stay in port or they'd take the ships. The French took no action and let the vessels rot at anchor until the US entered the war. The same goes for French possessions in the Pacific like Polynesia and Fiji Islands.

    As for German spys and sabatours: The Germans have to be one of the most inept and incompetent nations in the use of these in modern history. Their methods didn't even approach amateur level! If anything, the Germans were as incompetent at spying as the Russians were competent. And, the same may be said of German sabatours in comparison to British ones.
     
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