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What IF: The Dec.7'41 Pearl Harbor Attacks Included a Blockship ?

Discussion in 'What If - Pacific and CBI' started by dabrob, Jul 31, 2009.

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  1. formerjughead

    formerjughead The Cooler King

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    And that is different from you are doing ....how?
     
  2. dabrob

    dabrob Dishonorably Discharged

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    I have never disputed the fact that the IJN's minisubs tended to broach by the bow when both torpedoes were fired at roughly the same time. I believe that I pointed out that the minisub that did get into PH did bob to the surface by the bow when she fired at (and missed) the Curtis and a destroyer within PH.

    What I do continue to dispute was that IJN minisubs were unstable in normal operations at periscope depth, as some here have suggested.

    I believe that the historical sightings of IJN minisubs at night can be attributed to the efforts of their 2 man crews to renew the oxygen in their boats while attempting to too closely follow ships thru gatenets.
     
  3. dabrob

    dabrob Dishonorably Discharged

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    If you don't like the idea of a "what IF" section existing on this board then why don't you take that up with the modeators/owner of it ?

    I don't have the power to make that happen and wouldn't do so if I did.
     
  4. JagdtigerI

    JagdtigerI Ace

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    Two more years of fighting!? :eek: As in the war ends in 1947? How?? Does this blockship effect the Atomic Bomb production too?
     
  5. formerjughead

    formerjughead The Cooler King

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    You are going farther than a "What IF ? " you are redesigning battles and manipulating facts.

    Here's a What IF? : What if the Ward was sunk by a midget sub? What if that midget sub made it's way into Pearl Harbor and sunk a ship in the ship channel blocking ingress and egress?

    That is why I am saying you can not diverge too far from the Historical Time Line.

    The Japanese knew that they couldn't get their midgets into the Harbor during daylight, that is why they launched 7-8 hours before the attack.

    Why on earth didn't the Japanese Navy bring their own "Block Ship" with them during the attack if it would have been such great idea? probably because someone thought it was a stupid idea in 1941 and it hasn't improved with age.

    The Midgets did try and sink a ship in the channel and failed miserably. The only phase of the attack that was a success was the air portion and even that was only a moderate success because the carriers were not in the Harbor.

    Then you have to take into account the message from the Japanese regarding US expansion into the Pacific that was supposed to be delivered prior to the attack: It wasn't delivered on time prior to the attack in the Historical Time Line and then it sure as hell isn't going to be delivered prior to your opening of hostilities in the "Alternate Time Line".

    So at what time do you have the message being translated and delivered by the Japanese in the "ATL"? or are you even going to bother with that because it doesn't fit your ATL?

    Anybody can redesign a battle; but, making it fit with in the Historical Time Line of events is the tricky part to which you have failed to grasp again and again.

    The Japanese just did not operate the way you assume in your "ATL".
    You can not ignore the way things were done.

    How does it prevent Guadalcanal or the Bombing of Tokyo?

    This is the Stupidist thing I have ever heard......Wait this is the second stupidest thing I have ever heard in the What IF? forum.
     
  6. dabrob

    dabrob Dishonorably Discharged

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    The BOMB would still be ready in 1945 but island airbases within B-29 range of Japan would not yet be captured. A-bombing might have been done from Russian territory instead but I can't imagine the Americans wanting to tempt Stalin with that big a technology hijacking opportunity.
     
  7. JagdtigerI

    JagdtigerI Ace

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    But you haven't answered my question of how......
     
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  8. formerjughead

    formerjughead The Cooler King

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    You need to stop talking now because you're just being rediculous.

    How in the name of Jesus H Christ himself is blocking the entrance to Pearl Harbor going to effect the Battle of Guadalcanal or the bombing of Tokyo?

    You could have sunk a carrier in the Harbor Channel and it wouldn't have effected the day to day operations of the Navy that much.
     
  9. dabrob

    dabrob Dishonorably Discharged

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    That is what "what IFs" do.

    A waste of time example. A minisub had two torpedos. If the first one sank the Ward (and several posters here have pointed out that just one hit might not be enough or that the torpedo might miss), then that would leave only one torpedo remaining. Assuming that didn't miss, one torpedo couldn't sink a ship big enough to block the PH channel. Discussion over in less than 30 seconds. A boring waste of time. NEXT !

    When will you realize that I don't care ?

    So what ? My ATL scenario does NOT include sending even a single IJN minisub into Pearl Harbor at all. they are intended to sink the Ward and then infest the entrance channel around a scuttled Tatuta Maru.

    I don't know. I wasn't there at the time. Perhaps that is one of the items that might be discussed here after you stop complaining that my changes to the timeline are too wide ranging.

    Yet again your lack of basic research shines thru. The minisubs did NOT make any attempts on any American vessels within the PH entrance channel. They did fire two torpedos at the light cruiser USS St. Louis in the PH approaches as she exited Pearl Harbor at speed but as I previously typed, a coral head spoiled what appeared to be a killer double shot.

    Who cares ? AFAIK it wasn't on the subject of US expansion into the Pacific at all.

    Nothing about the 14 part message is changed by my ATL Japanese sending a blockship along to Pearl Harbor with the Kido Butai.

    It's not my grasp that is failing.

    None of my ATL scenarios ignore the way, or the "style" of how the early war Japanese did things but I will continue to alter the details of what they MIGHT have done in my ATL scenarios.

    What on earth are you raving about with this gem ? I have never typed either.

    I think it best if I reply to no more of your postings.
     
  10. JagdtigerI

    JagdtigerI Ace

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    Ok so how does it prolong the war 2 years........why am I having Déjà vu :rolleyes:
     
  11. dabrob

    dabrob Dishonorably Discharged

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    Uhmm,

    I've said that the BOMB would still be ready in 1945 and I've typed that island bases needed to be captured within B-29 range of Japan.

    You do know that the B-29 was a bomber used to carry A-bombs, right ?

    Can you really not just "connect the dots" yourself ?

    Geez.


    Time for a double scotch I think.
     
  12. JagdtigerI

    JagdtigerI Ace

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    Yea HOW DOES THAT NOT HAPPEN??
     
  13. formerjughead

    formerjughead The Cooler King

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    Don't hurt yourself jumping to that conclusion. How many people is it going to take for you to realize that your plan is no good.

    The Raid on Tokyo divided the IJN between offensive operations and defense of the home islands.

    Did B-29s ever fly out of Hickam...............NOPE!
     
  14. T. A. Gardner

    T. A. Gardner Genuine Chief

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    The ships ranged from roughly 200 to 6000 tons in size and included local vessels, a number of French and Italian merchant ships and, some merchant ships interned from other nations as well. See: Mud, Muscle, and Miracles Marine Salvage in the United States Navy C. A. Bartholomew, Capt, USN

    The USN far bested this performance as the war progressed too. You might also read Under the Red Sea Sun by Edward Ellsberg, Cdr (later R. Adm), USN. Arguably the world's leading expert on marine salvage at the time and, inventor of the underwater cutting torch.

    As for the Ward's armament at the time she was still in her WW 1 configuration as she was brought out of mothballs and manned partially by reservists from Wisconsin. At the time she had 5 x 5"/51 single purpose guns, a Y gun, two depth charge racks, 12 torpedo tubes and 2 .50 machineguns.
     
  15. dabrob

    dabrob Dishonorably Discharged

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    Terry,

    Many thanks for those 2 sources. I'll do my best to track down a copy of each. It's good to see that this might actually turn into a 2 way discussion with some meaningful exchange of information, rather than just bickering.

    I notice that you didn't provide a source for this claim however ?

    I see from Conway's all the world's fighting ... - Google Books
    _rTQ&hl=en&ei=0nZ5Sqy_AdOBtgfdl92WCQ&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result
    &resnum=4#v=onepage&q=&f=false that the Wickes class were built with 4" guns, not 5".

    A visit to USS Ward DD-139 / APD-16 Ship's History indicates that Ward carried 4" guns until she was converted into APD-16 in January 1943.

    Last but not least, the State of Minnesota has enshrined the 4" gun from the Ward that sank that IJN minisub on Dec.7'41 as can be seen at
    MDVA: Minnesota Veteran Memorials - USS Ward (DD-139) Gun so how/when/where was she equipped with the 5"/51s that you claim she carried on Dec.7'41 ?
     
  16. dabrob

    dabrob Dishonorably Discharged

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    An off-topic question best answered in another new thread, entitled:
    "What IF: The Japanese Had Made a 3rd Air Raid on Pearl Harbor ?"
     
  17. JagdtigerI

    JagdtigerI Ace

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    A 3rd wave from Japan is quite unreasonable and risky, but I won't go into that now.

    I am still waiting for my answer to how the blockship delays the US in their push across the Pacific.........
     
  18. dabrob

    dabrob Dishonorably Discharged

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  19. JagdtigerI

    JagdtigerI Ace

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    At this point I am assuming you are just never going to answer my question
     
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  20. dabrob

    dabrob Dishonorably Discharged

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    I answered your question with my posting #96 here.

    Do you not read ?

    'Tis not my fault that the moderators here have not yet approved my new "what IF" scenario for "public" viewing. It has been submitted and I, like you, can only wait for it to appear. Take it up with them.

    Geez.
     
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