Welcome to the WWII Forums! Log in or Sign up to interact with the community.

What if the Nazis hated Muslims instead of Jews?

Discussion in 'What If - European Theater - Western Front & Atlan' started by Ken The Kanuck, Jun 2, 2011.

  1. Ken The Kanuck

    Ken The Kanuck Member

    Joined:
    May 16, 2010
    Messages:
    1,282
    Likes Received:
    472
    Please forgive me if I do not present this correctly, I know that there is certain criteria for these types of threads. Hopefully I'm within it.

    The Nazi's it seems needed a scapegoat to blame Germany's defeat in WWI and woes upon. The Jews had long been despised by many Europeans and fit the bill perfectly for the Nazis. But truly perhaps they would have been better off picking on the Muslims, after all the Jews had added much to German society and culture, including serving bravely in her wars.

    The Muslims did not. The Muslim countries which were allied with the Axis really didn't help the Axis cause very much.

    The Muslims would have been a great dog to kick, very little love for them in the British Empire. The Jews on the other hand had alot of support in Britain and the US. Good treatment of them may have paid off in spades.

    And how about today's world. What would it be like? No Israel and perhaps a country called Palestine, supported by the US.

    Some interesting possibilities for discussion I think, what do you think?

    KTK
     
  2. brndirt1

    brndirt1 Saddle Tramp

    Joined:
    Jul 7, 2008
    Messages:
    9,713
    Likes Received:
    1,501
    Hitler did despise the Muslims, but there were few of them inside of Europe which he could blame for Germany's problems, not so the Jews. That said, he allowed the SS to enlist the Muslims from different areas simply because the "pool" of other Jew haters was getting thin later in the war.

    He himself said (paraphrasing); "We shall use these men in our fight, but never forget that they too are Semites." There was that, and the fact that most of the mid-east was as anti-British as it was anti-Jew. He knew full well how to exploit other people and their own hatreds for his own purpose.
     
  3. sunny971

    sunny971 Ace

    Joined:
    Apr 29, 2009
    Messages:
    1,612
    Likes Received:
    244
    it wouldn't make a difference. Even if Hitler managed to kill every single jew, eventually his focus would be elsewhere. He had his eye on the middle east and if the arabs/ muslims got in his way, well based on his track record, i'd say it would look similar to what happened to the jews.

    At the time the population of Muslims in Europe/ Germany were nothing compared to what the population is today. At that time there were more jews so they were an easy target. If the populations were reversed i'm sure Hitler would find a reason to hate muslims too.

    he showed courtship with the arabs at the time, but it didn't mean he was on their side. If we recall, he played that game before with the soviets, and as we all know, Hitler evenually attacked the soviet Union.

    Thankfully we never gave hitler the oppertunity to win. I guess that's all that really matters.
     
  4. LRusso216

    LRusso216 Graybeard Staff Member Patron  

    Joined:
    Jan 5, 2009
    Messages:
    13,683
    Likes Received:
    2,229
    Location:
    Pennsylvania
    I think the scenario is too far-fetched. Antisemitism was a bugaboo in Europe generally, and Germany in particular, for any other group to take its place. While there may have have been animosity towards Muslims, they didn't have the kind of social standing that the Jews did. I can't even begin to imagine how Hitler woudl have grown up with that kind of hatred toward them.
     
  5. formerjughead

    formerjughead The Cooler King

    Joined:
    Dec 29, 2008
    Messages:
    5,625
    Likes Received:
    999
    I think the biggest issue was the depth to which "ethnic group X" was engrained to which ever society they promulgated. The British pretty much had an open season on Muslims for about 500 years during the Crusades. The Spanish spent a couple hundred years trying to tame the godless savages of the "New World". The US had an Anti Chinese Coalition during the western expansion, the Irish were the beasts of burden for the Eastern Seaboard until they were displaced by the "Free Blacks". I think intercultural terrorism and the enforcing of ideals and engendering goes back to about Adam and Eve when the first discrimination revolved around the ability to lift heavy stuff and pee standing up.

    I am no sociologist; but, anytime one group can exploit the differences of another group for either self enfranchisement, humor or personal gain they are going to do it regardless of morality or comon sense.
     
    Biak, ULITHI, A-58 and 1 other person like this.
  6. Ken The Kanuck

    Ken The Kanuck Member

    Joined:
    May 16, 2010
    Messages:
    1,282
    Likes Received:
    472


    Well I believe that much of the hatred towards the Jews was contrived in order to deprive them of their wealth, very much like the anti-Japanese sentiment was here on the west coast. Yes, both groups were disliked for reasons beyond that, but it sure didn't hurt.

    When did Hitler solidified his hatred of the Jews? Was it in Vienna when he failed as an artist? Was it with defeat in WWI? Hitler strikes me as an opportunistic fellow, especially at the start when he lock on power wasn't absolute.

    Would of he met more success and less resistance in trying to find land for the expansion of the German people in Muslim countries such as Turkey, rather than eastern European and Russian territories?

    Perhaps he should have listened to Winston Churchill and aligned his prejudices. Here is a quote.



    "A quote from an 1899 book by Winston Churchill, "The River War", in which he describes Muslims he apparently observed during Kitchener's campaign in the Sudan"



    "How dreadful are the curses which Mohammedanism lays on its votaries! Besides the fanatical frenzy, which is as dangerous in a man as hydrophobia in a dog, there is this fearful fatalistic apathy. The effects are apparent in many countries. Improvident habits, slovenly systems of agriculture, sluggish methods of commerce, and insecurity of property exist wherever the followers of the Prophet rule or live. A degraded sensualism deprives this life of its grace and refinement; the next of its dignity and sanctity. The fact that in Mohammedan law every woman must belong to some man as his absolute property - either as a child, a wife, or a concubine - must delay the final extinction of slavery until the faith of Islam has ceased to be a great power among men. Individual Moslems may show splendid qualities. Thousands become the brave and loyal soldiers of the Queen; all know how to die; but the influence of the religion paralyses the social development of those who follow it. No stronger retrograde force exists in the world. Far from being moribund, Mohammedanism is a militant and proselytizing faith. It has already spread throughout Central Africa, raising fearless warriors at every step; and were it not that Christianity is sheltered in the strong arms of science - the science against which it had vainly struggled - the civilisation of modern Europe might fall, as fell the civilisation of ancient" Rome.




    Read more: http://wiki.answers.com/Q/What_was_Winston_Churchill's_quote_on_Islam#ixzz1OBYx61mv
     
    Biak likes this.
  7. rkline56

    rkline56 USS Oklahoma City CG5

    Joined:
    May 8, 2011
    Messages:
    1,192
    Likes Received:
    214
    Location:
    CA Norte Mexico, USA
    Old Winston, hitting the nail right on the head. Goths and Visigoths at our gates. Nice post Ken.
     
  8. belasar

    belasar Court Jester Staff Member

    Joined:
    May 9, 2010
    Messages:
    8,093
    Likes Received:
    1,059
    Anti-semitism was nothing new in Europe at the time of Hitler's rise. Recall the Pogroms of Russia and the Dreyfuss Affair. He had to be guilty as a spy, why, because he was Jewish of course.
     
  9. OpanaPointer

    OpanaPointer I Point at Opana Staff Member Patron   WW2|ORG Editor

    Joined:
    Jun 5, 2008
    Messages:
    11,060
    Likes Received:
    1,794
    When the Mufti of Jerusalem snuggled up to the Nazis in the hopes they'd kill every Jew in Palestine he was given a little wake-up call.


    "Remember, you too are a Semite."
     
  10. TiredOldSoldier

    TiredOldSoldier Ace

    Joined:
    Sep 14, 2008
    Messages:
    3,223
    Likes Received:
    451
    Horrible scenarion, with Einstein, Fermi and the rest of the Jewish scientists working for the axis they could possibly have won the A-Bomb race and with London and Southampton turned to radioactive ruins setting up an invasion is a nightmare.
     
  11. Ken The Kanuck

    Ken The Kanuck Member

    Joined:
    May 16, 2010
    Messages:
    1,282
    Likes Received:
    472
    I had thought of this too. The leap from Jew to Arab would not have been too far. Here is a list of Semite people.

    Pages in category "Semitic peoples"


    The following 40 pages are in this category, out of 40 total. This list may not reflect recent changes (learn more).
    A

    B

    C

    E

    G

    H

    I

    J

    K

    M

    As you can see both Jews and Arabs are included. So the question becomes what did Hitler and the Nazis hate about the Jews? Obviously not that they were a Semite people as the Nazi allied themselves with other Semite people and nations. So in fact Hitler and the Nazis were not anti-Semitic. That sounds weird, eh? Considering that we consider them to be most anti-Semitic group of all time.

    So that leaves religion as an indentifying factor to pick the object of their hatred with. I would think that the Jewish religion would be much more identifiable and acceptable to the Christians rather than Islam. And Hitler and the Nazis did try to appease the German people’s strong Christian beliefs and leanings by identifying with the church.

    Hitler needed a scapegoat, could of he fared better if he would picked the Muslims rather than the Jews? For although there was much history in Eastern Europe of hatred for the Jews, there was also much acceptance.

    Given today's troubles with the fanatics of Islam (and our troubles with the Muslims is only with the nut bars, the average Joe I believe only wants to live in peace) Hitler may found that his policies and goals were more acceptable by picking a softer target.

    KTK
     
  12. brndirt1

    brndirt1 Saddle Tramp

    Joined:
    Jul 7, 2008
    Messages:
    9,713
    Likes Received:
    1,501
    While it is true that both Jews and Muslims (for the most part) are included in the Semitic group, the Muslims were too small a group inside of Europe to be singled out to be the "scapegoat".

    The Jews were "just the right size" according to Franz L. Neumann in his book Behemoth. Hitler couldn’t pick out the industrialists to blame for Germany’s ills; they were too big and also funding his party. He couldn’t pick the church (Catholic or Protestant), they were also too big and the bulk of his target population were Christian.

    He couldn’t pick out the smaller off-shoot religions (i.e. Jehovah's Witness, Quakers), they were too small to get anybody upset about. The Jews also had the advantage of being just big enough to seem a plausible threat, and centuries of Christian antipathy upon which to draw. The Jews were the "path of least resistance" for his drum beat of hatred and suspicion. The tiny Muslim population inside of Europe at the time of Hitler’s grab for power was simply a non-entity, remember that they had been largely driven out of Europe in the 15th Century.

    Then add in that the Muslims, in the near East were a thorn in the side for two of his future foes, the French and the British, both of whom were in charge of portions of the former Ottoman Empire. As long as the Muslims were stirring up trouble for those two nations, as they had since the mandate’s being established post WW1, he was a happy camper and willing to aid them in their efforts.

    So let’s see here:

    First, the Muslims were too small a group numerically to gain attention as a threat to Germany.

    Second, they were not important enough in his constituent population to pick as a "target" for the economic ills of the German nation.

    Third, they didn’t have the built in "they killed Jesus" stigma, which the Jews had for nearly entirely the history of the Catholic, and later Protestant Church. As early as Gregory of Nyssa in the 4th Century:

    (the Jews are) "Slayers of the Lord, murderers of the prophets, adversaries of God, men who show contempt for the Law, foes of grace, enemies of their fathers' faith, advocates of the Devil, brood of vipers, slanderers, scoffers, men whose minds are in darkness, leaven of the Pharisees, assembly of demons, sinners, wicked men, stoners, and haters of righteousness."

    Lastly, the Muslims were driving the British and French absolutely "bonkers" with little insurrections inside the Near East mandates. Hitler wanted that to continue, not halt; which it might have if he had targeted the Muslims.

    The Muslims are a non-starter for Hitler's target.
     
    CPL Punishment likes this.
  13. Gebirgsjaeger

    Gebirgsjaeger Ace

    Joined:
    Jun 11, 2010
    Messages:
    4,333
    Likes Received:
    289
    Ken, i think it the easy way. The Jews where hated by Hitler for their role as loan sharks and the people who hhad the strings of economy in their hands, and for some private reasons too.
    The Arabs weren´t a problem to him because he thought they were primitives and good partners against the Jews. And not to forget he neede the same black soup the gouvernments of todays world are needing, the oil. And in the 1930 weren´t much of Muslems at Germany so there wasn´t enough stuff to feed his propaganda industry with.
     
  14. brndirt1

    brndirt1 Saddle Tramp

    Joined:
    Jul 7, 2008
    Messages:
    9,713
    Likes Received:
    1,501
    You are mistaken in thinking that the Arabs, let alone the Muslims controlled any of the oil of the mid-east. They didn't gain the least bit of control over that black gold until well after WW2 was long over.
     
  15. Gebirgsjaeger

    Gebirgsjaeger Ace

    Joined:
    Jun 11, 2010
    Messages:
    4,333
    Likes Received:
    289
    Clint, do you really think that the Nazis made any difference between arabs and muslims? I´m not so sure at this.
     
  16. Markus Becker

    Markus Becker Member

    Joined:
    Jan 26, 2005
    Messages:
    503
    Likes Received:
    29
    Actually that is not correct. Anti-semitism is not directed against all semites, it´s hatered of jews and only jews! And this POS hated Jews very, very much. He and the Nazis worked together smoothly as they shared two commen enemies: the Brits and the Jews.
     
  17. Ken The Kanuck

    Ken The Kanuck Member

    Joined:
    May 16, 2010
    Messages:
    1,282
    Likes Received:
    472
    So it would appear that our learned posters have come to the conclusion that Muslims simply didn't make a good enough target. The Jews however did. This I believe is absolutely true. Were they the best target in the long run? Well that is the point of threads like this is to cause us to ponder a "what if".

    History cannot be changed once it has occurred, one can wonder however how certain events if different would have effected history.

    I am not convinced that Hitler (atleast at the beginning) despised the Jews as he came to. He needed a scapegoat, he needed a red herring with which to distract the German people.

    I fear that often the very same ploy is used upon us. Is it the Muslim today? Are they our scapegoat? Just like the Jew at the beginning of the last century and earlier they are easy to hate. They control the oil and henceforth are often wealthy beyond our dreams. A portion of the adherants to their faith are willing to injure us.

    Perhaps Hitler and the Nazis needed an enemy with which to distract the German people while they stripped them of their freedoms and in the end their lives too. This ploy seems all too common, but what if they had the Jews on their side? What (as it was pointed out) those brilliant Jews worked for the Nazis. I'm pretty sure that there isn't much love lost between the Jews and the Muslims. What then?

    It is obvious as history has taught us that Hitler and the Nazis screwed up. Maybe they picked the wrong dog to kick?

    KTK
     
  18. brndirt1

    brndirt1 Saddle Tramp

    Joined:
    Jul 7, 2008
    Messages:
    9,713
    Likes Received:
    1,501
    I believe this is the case, the Nazis did distinguish between the Turks (mostly Muslim), the Persians (mostly Muslim), and the Arabs (mostly Muslim) and saw each on a different rung of their "racial ladder". I'm not at all sure exactly where the Nazis placed the Egyptian population in their "racial ladder", but they were a majority Muslim faith following group, but they also even then had Christians (Copts), and Jews in their population.
     
  19. brndirt1

    brndirt1 Saddle Tramp

    Joined:
    Jul 7, 2008
    Messages:
    9,713
    Likes Received:
    1,501
    I believe that Hitler picked the only dog he could to kick. The internal Muslim population was simply too insignificant and unimportant a target to "rally the population" against. Hatred and fear are necessary ingredients for a dictator to come to the fore, there wasn't another target, i.e. "dog to kick". For all of Hitler's flaws, he was an astute politician and knew full well how to "rally the masses" behind him.
     
  20. Gebirgsjaeger

    Gebirgsjaeger Ace

    Joined:
    Jun 11, 2010
    Messages:
    4,333
    Likes Received:
    289
    That can be correct. I think more that they divided them in groups like "helpfull" "very helpfull " Not of any interest" for the case of their victory in ww2.
     

Share This Page