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What if the Nazis hated Muslims instead of Jews?

Discussion in 'What If - European Theater - Western Front & Atlan' started by Ken The Kanuck, Jun 2, 2011.

  1. brndirt1

    brndirt1 Saddle Tramp

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    By the time Hitler began to "research" race theories, large groups of people who happened to speak the same language (more or less), who had a common history (more or less), and had developed certain modes of thought and social behavior were seen as the same "race." This was of course totally false and now seen as flawed thinking, but it was prevalent at that time.

    Using those parameters it was estimated that only 7% of Europe proper was populated by non-Aryan language/race groups, and that 7% included the Ural-Altaic (Hungarians, Turks, etc.), Semitic (Jews, Arabs, etc.), and other "darker-skinned" types who, for the most part, had followed the Aryans into Europe. It was propounded, however, that "three great racial groups" accounted for 93% of the total population of Europe, and they each were more "important" as to contributions to western civilization in the arts, the sciences, and law.

    On the first rung of his (Hitler's) racial ladder were the Nordic or Germanic races which for the most part consisted of the Germans, English, Dutch, Swedes, Norwegians, Danes, some Swiss and "probably" the Albanians and the "hopelessly mixed" Greeks.

    Second from the top was the "Latin race" which included the French, Italian, Spanish, Portuguese, and Romanian. And third down in his list, were the "Slavic races" consisting mainly of the Russians, Czechs, Yugoslavs, Bulgarians, and Poles.

    From the Slavic rung on down, to the Semitic (Jews, Arabs…) on the bottom; these were the "Untermensch".

    Adolf Hitler had a well thumbed 1920 two volume version of H.G. Wells’; The Outline of History, in his library which it appears he had owned since the middle twenties. His "racial ladder" closely followed the one put forward by Herbert G. Wells (he was not just a science fiction writer you know).
     
  2. brndirt1

    brndirt1 Saddle Tramp

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    This is a sort of favorite subject of mine, since Hitler and the Nazis were all over the place when it came to "which dog to kick" and which to feed.

    The Third Reich and the Arab East, by Lukasz Hirszowicz, a Polish-born scholar, published over 40 years ago remains a definitive work. It examines in careful detail how;"Hitler's Germany sought to woo Arabs through anti-British and anti-Jewish policies."

    The first Arabic translation of Mein Kampf appeared in 1938, and Hitler himself tactfully decided to omit from it the "racial ladder" theory which viewed both the Jews and the Arabs as "Untermench." …Of all the Arabs convinced of Hitler's coming triumph, none was so eager as Haj Amin al-Husseini, the grand mufti of Jerusalem and leader of the Palestinian Arabs in the Hitler years.

    Vincent Sheean, the Thomas L. Friedman of the day, thought that Haj Amin had "great gifts." Along the lines that "...my enemy's enemy is my friend," Haj Amin converted the Palestinian cause into a local branch of Hitler's worldwide anti-Jewish persecution. Fleeing from the British, he spent the war in Berlin. A friend and admirer of Himmler's, he raised a division of Bosnian Muslims for the SS. Hitler made grandiose promises to him, but was cautious enough to add that; "… they could be met only after victory."

    Fanaticism had led Haj Amin into utter delusion. Hitler, the expected savior, had in reality the settled conviction that Arabs were "Untermenschen" and he had no intention of doing them any favors. On the racial ladder of his, Arabs occupied a completely servile place, held in much the same contempt as the Jews.
     
  3. Gebirgsjaeger

    Gebirgsjaeger Ace

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    Yes that were the steps of his ladder! And Hitler was that purposeful, that he made some contracts with people that were "Untermenschen" to his eyes. And i think he would have made much more contracts with the arabs if he was able to do this, only to reach his targets. The elimination of the Jews, reach worldwide economical power and get the sources he needs to dictate the British and other nations his way of peace. He used his own rules like he would and like he could had the most success in the situation. And as much as he has seen the Arabs as "Untermenschen" as less he had seen them as enemies for the same reason Haj Amin had seen him as a enemy of his culture. They had the same enemy and they were much to unimportant to him. Good sources, Clint.
     
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  4. OpanaPointer

    OpanaPointer I Point at Opana Staff Member Patron   WW2|ORG Editor

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    The quote has been checked and it stands.

    As for the fate of the Muslims if the Germans had won the war, I think they would have been treated like the Jews if they been any problem to the Master Race.
     
  5. Gebirgsjaeger

    Gebirgsjaeger Ace

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    Thats for sure!
     
  6. formerjughead

    formerjughead The Cooler King

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    I have to agree with that. The Third Reich/ NAZI party was built on fear and contempt of everything that was not of pure Aryan decent. IF Hitler and he NAZIs had been successful in exterminating the European Jewery they simply would have moved on to another ethnic goup whom they deemed unworthy. Hitler wanted to subjugate the world and create an Aryan Utopia wich did not include anyone except pure Aryans.
     
  7. Markus Becker

    Markus Becker Member

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    The latter is correct but does not change the fact that the phrase anti-semitism means hatered of Jews and only of Jews. It also doesn´t change that Haj Amin loved Hitler because of their shared hatered of Jews.

    Speaking of the quote, where can I find it? Google comes up empty.
     
  8. OpanaPointer

    OpanaPointer I Point at Opana Staff Member Patron   WW2|ORG Editor

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    The quote was taken from a transcript of a conference between, IIRC, Himmler and the Mufti. I stumbled across it while I was at Purdue and my lead professor, a German historian (studied the Obergammerau (sp?) Passion Play for fun) did some checking and confirmed it for me. I don't speak or read German, but I trust the prof., so I'm good with the quote.

    As for antis-semitism, the Nazis were never ones to slavishly follow the rules regarding that kind of thing. The quote evidences their attitudes nicely. (Remember, they were also looking for proof that Aryans had originated from some super race and not the "dark skinned Indians".
     
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  9. brndirt1

    brndirt1 Saddle Tramp

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    Here a "fun" video on Lanz and how he always claimed that Hitler "stole" his ideas on racial purity and anti-Jewish positions that should be followed by any "successful" government and a "master-race".

    Goto:

    Hulu - WWII: History Remembered: Hitler Stole My Ideas

    Of course, it should be watched with caution since it does include many phrases and photos which might be considered offensive by some.
     
  10. Oktam

    Oktam Member

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    The question is incorrectly formulated. It ought to be, "What if Nazis hated Arabs instead of Jews?" As Muslims aren't an ethnic group, they don't fall under the radar of National Socialist's racial policy.

    One of fascism's characteristics is racism: one's nation is always held superior to others. Not only is the answer to the question affirmative. It is not a "what if?"; it is already installed in National Socialism.
     
  11. Ken The Kanuck

    Ken The Kanuck Member

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    Jews or Muslims are not ethnic groups they are followers of religions. Actually closely related religions.

    KTK
     
  12. ptimms

    ptimms Member

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    There was no point in hating muslims. The whole idea is to give a minority to blame things on, there was no significant muslim population in Germany.
     
  13. Ken The Kanuck

    Ken The Kanuck Member

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    If indeed they had focused their hate on the Muslims rather than the Jews they in fact then could of utilized a resource they had, namely the Jews.

    By picking the Muslims as the focus of their hatred, they could of used this as part of their justification for some of their adventures in other lands.

    Also the treatment of Jews by the Russians, other Slavic people could of been as justification for the invasion of those countries.

    No, I think that the German's missed the boat when they chose their scapegoat.

    But I wonder what today's world would look like? Would the Allie's collective guilt had led to a powerful Muslim state where Israel now is and be supported by the west?

    KTK
     
  14. Biak

    Biak Adjutant

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    Wouldn't have worked due to the fact Muslims did not control the European countries he wanted. Hitler wanted to control Europe not the Middle East. Possibly later if all worked as planned, but his goal was an enlarged & unified Germany. The Jews were his impetus to arouse the Masses, the animosity was already in place. Much like the America of the 1700-1800's. Pick a group, any group that can be construed as a threat and build that threat. The dislike or actual hatred for the Jews was already there to be exploited. If the goal had been to acquire the trade routes and oil fields of the Arabian states, the target would have been Islam. And as for Islam, arouse Sunni against Shia and stir!
    We're a gullible Species we Humans, tell us what we want to hear and we'll follow you anywhere.
     
  15. brndirt1

    brndirt1 Saddle Tramp

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    As has been mentioned, the followers of Islam made up a very minor portion of Europe’s population (as my own early posts state, starting with #11), it is difficult to rouse the ire of your population base if the "target" is too small to really effect your ideal life.

    European Jewry also made up a very small proportion Europe’s population, but much larger than the Muslims. On the eve of WW2 census tallies showed that some 9 million Jews were recorded as actually living in and owning property in continental Europe, or 0.02% of the total population. Of these, the largest Jewish community was in Poland, about 3,250,000 to 3,500,000 Jews or 9.8% of the total Polish population. Greater Germany’s approximately 565,000 Jews made up only 0.8% of its population. Franz Neumann describes the situation perfectly.


    "National-Socialism, which claims to have abolished the class struggle, needs an adversary whose very existence can serve to integrate antagonistic groups within a common society. That enemy can not be too weak. If it were too weak, it would be impossible to present it to the population as its supreme enemy. Nor can it be too strong, for that would commit the Nazis to a difficult struggle against a powerful enemy. (bold mine)

    It was for that reason that the Catholic church was not promoted to the rank of supreme enemy. But the Jews fit the bill admirably. As a result, such an ideology and such anti-Semitic practices entail the extermination of the Jews, the only means to achieve an ultimate aim: the destruction of institutions, beliefs, and groups still remaining free." (Franz L. Neumann; Behemoth, p. 513.)
     
  16. Carronade

    Carronade Ace Patron  

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    Nazi anti-Semitism derived from a long history of anti-Semitism throughout Europe. Jews had been part of European societies - and mistrusted by the Christian majority - for a thousand years, while there was no internal Muslim presence. You might as well ask what if the Nazis hated Indians.

    Small point, I think you meant 2%. 2% and .02 are both expressions of 2/100. .02% is 2/10,000.
     
  17. brndirt1

    brndirt1 Saddle Tramp

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    No, I believe I do mean 0.02%. I do think that it was 2 Jews for each 10,000 non-Jews in continental Europe. This excludes the Soviet Union as they were considered more of an Asian than European nation. So the Jews in that area wouldn't be in the 9 million Jewish population number. I could be wrong, but I am reasonably sure there were 5,000 non-Jews for each Jew at the time. I'll have to see if I can find that ratio somewhere again, I know I didn't make it up out of whole cloth.
     
  18. formerjughead

    formerjughead The Cooler King

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