What would happen if Britain was defeated in 1940 ?

Ok, after a fair bit of thought, here is how I see it going:

Britain is taken, or forced into submission. Germany is free to concentrate on Russia, and by 1943(ish) has met her goal of forcing them back to the Urals.

However. For some reason, America is in the war against Germany. Presumably Hitler got carried away by victories and followed the Japanese. Their first efforts would be to:

1) defeat Japan
2) protect the US Eastern seaboard
3) give aid to Russia

1) can go pretty much as was, except for greater US involvement in the India/Burma campaign.

2) Here we run into Admiral King. Huge sinkings of American ships up until at least 1943 (as happened), when a proper convoy system comes into play, with decent air patrols, and maybe even the formation of hunter-killer groups.

3) Simply across the gap between Russia & Alaska. American engineers build a second & third line onto the Trans-Siberian railway, and export good trains & rolling stock to help the supply routes.

The outcome is that the Soviets begin to apply increasing pressure on the Ural front, distracting the Germans.

Here is where it gets interesting.

1) Would the Germans bother to make the 'Atlantic Wall' in this scenario?

2) Would America join in in Russia, or create a Second Front? (I know what Stalin would push for!)

 

Excellent post Ricky. Finally someone who realizes that Roosevelt was not just playing the European great powers game but was an active anti-facist (and anti-communist and anti-imperialist). The US started planning a go it alone war in 1940.

The USSR would have remained a threat to the Germans, much of their industrial capacity was beyond the Urals. Great thinking on an expanded Trans-Siberian RR.

On point one the US may have won even faster against the Japanese without a European theater to "distract" them.
On point 2, I think the King factor would have been much reduced if the Brits had already packed it in.

The Brits (Churchill at least) had planned to move the RN and government to Canada and fight on from there. What effect would this have had on the on-going battle?

 

Uhh ohh - you mentioned the 'K' word, that has a distressing habit of starting flame wars elsewhere.

I would say Alaska - Siberia (with upgrades to the rail links) would be chosen in favour of shipping accross the Atlantic, although I cant see Stalin allowing American engineers in - looks at the convoys situation that did happen with crews practically restricted to their ships when in Soviet territory.

Canambridge - Roosevelt may have been an anti-communist but he seems to have been taken in completely by Stalin - from what I've read he continued thinking right to his death he could 'deal' with Stalin. Churchill for all his faults realised what Stalin represented but by the end 1943 his opinion didn't mean much and without 'a country', it would have probably mattered even less much sooner.

 

With Britain out of the war in 1940 Germany's western front is secure, full stop. Nothing the US could do - D-Day was gamble enough with both Western Allies crossing the Channel, with only one power trying to cross the Atlantic and only carrier based air cover (no heavy bombers) would have been impossible. Germany would probably have then defeated the USSR in 1942 or 43.
The US would have defeated Japan and had to come to some haggled agreement with Germany, followed by a US/German cold war with the US supporting the rump of the Soviet Union with arms and supplies. All together a very unpleasant situation!

 

but would the japanese attacking the ural moutains from the soviet eastern front?

 

Maybe, if they ever bothered to co-ordinate with the Germans.
However, if the Germans had such success, it might have meant that the 'Strike North' party in Japan got their way. However, looking at timescales (Germany would probably still be finishing off Britain when Japan saw an even better opportunity & even weaker British Empire than in real life), I doubt it.

As to the RN - it depends on how Britain is knocked out of the war. If we are invaded, I can see a 'Free English' force over in Canada. I reckon that America would give the RN (co-ordinating with the USAAC/USAAF) responsibility for the Atlantic, while the USN deals with the Pacific.

 

Here's a thought. If Britain had been knocked out before Nov 1940 then the raid on the Italian fleet at Toranto would not have taken place. One of the consequences of this could have been that the Japanese did not have anything to base the Pearl Harbor attack on and it therefore would have been less likely to take place.

Small niggle for all contributors; using 'England' and the 'English' when meaning UK or Britain is a bit annoying for non English Brits and is an inaccurate term to use. :angry:

(the most recent example, don't mean to single out Ricky!)
British please!

 

Sorry, yes. We should also point out that 'British' in terms of 'British Forces' includes the Empire (India, Canada, Australia, etc etc) who did a heck of a lot of sterling work with very little recognition.

 

Thats a good poiint by Ricky about how Britain left the war being important - had Britain been invaded and conquered the rest of the Empire along with surviving British naval rescources would probably have continued the war from Canada linking with the US after they came in (though probably as a very, very junior partner with far less influance on the conduct of the war than Britain had in reality).
If on the other hand Churchill had been deposed after Dunkirk and a new govenment reached a compromise peace with Germany things are different again, the US simply did not have the naval rescources to dominate both the Pacific and Atlantic at the same time and even if they could after dealling with Japan, a cross Ocean invasion was simply impossible.

 

I agree with you, Roosevelt never did seem to realize that Stalin was as bad or worse than Hitler. It would have been interesting to see how Roosevlet would have reacted to Stalin's post war moves.

 

mk

 

Severly unlikely given the ideological problems and considering they were both on a collision course to war.

No "Might" about it, and it's hard to remain a neutral once the Japanese have attacked and Germany declared war on the US.

No, not even in the realms of Fantasy land. It took the combined efforts of the Allies 3 years of preparation to successfully cross the relatively tiny Channel, a Transatlantic invasion is going to be even more of a no-goer logistically the Seelowe, such collosal naval forces would be required to keept the supply lines open that it would likely bankrupt any nation attempting it, and even then against the USN on its own the supply lines would still be relatively easy to sever.