When was the 88 first used as direct fire against land targets?

I'd read that Rommel was the first to use the 88 as a direct fire weapon against the English on the ground in Africa. Where / when did that event happen ( which battle- Tobruk? ) ? I wonder why the 88 was in a mount that allowed it to be fired against tanks (if)when Rommel's first idea to employ against ground targets. You'd think the 88 were in AA mounts and Rommel said " get those 88's off the AA mounts and use against ground targets". Or were the air mounts capable of ground targeting?...If I recall he was in retreat and in desperation used the 88's to decimate following English Matilda II's?

 

Wrong "A"; not Africa, but Rommel's forces at Arras, France, in May, 1940.

Although, I am certain that the Germans fighting with the Condor Legion used them in direct fire mode during the Spanish Civil War. Here is a good article: Spanish Civil WAr: The German Kondor Legion A Firepower Force Package in Combat | FA Journal | Find Articles

 

I believe one must also remember that the "88" was designed to be towed, which required its being able to be structurally sound in the horizontal mode. To move from horizontal (anti-tank) to near vertical (anti-air) must have been inherit in the design of the towing structure when Krupp and the Swedes were working together in the inter-war years.

 

IIRC they were used in the ground role in Poland also, for example against the Poles' Burza counteroffensive.

 

The Condor Legion made extensive use of the 88 in the Spanish Civil War, where its usefulness as an anti-tank weapon and a general artillery piece exceeded its role as an anti-aircraft weapon.
The 88 performed well in its original role of an anti-aircraft gun, but it proved to be a superb anti-tank gun as well. Its success was due to its versatility: the standard anti-aircraft platform allowed gunners to depress the muzzle below horizontal, unlike most other anti-aircraft guns.

Interesting site: 88mm Flak Series - Flugabwehrkanone

 

That was my recollection as well; the Germans figured out that particular trick in the Spanish Civil War, not impromtu on the Eastern Front as is often implied.

If you think about it though, it makes perfect sense. To be effective against high-flying aircraft a gun needs high velocity. To punch through armor a gun needs high velocity. Why not design a weapon that can do both?

Operation Barbarossa: The 88-Flak

According to the article above General Ludwig Ritter von Eimannsberger was the one responsible for making the 88 double as an AT weapon. Unfortunately, it doesn't go into details but it also sounds like the Soviets figured out that AA guns would make suitable anti-tank weapons given the proper mounts.

 

I know that Ian Hogg is a little outdated as a source, but I believe he's fair in saying ( in 'German Artillery Of WWII', p.166 ) that the A/T capabilities of the gun were first noted when a small number of 88s were used in Spain by the Condor Legion, but '(the 88s) full potential as an anti-tank gun was not exploited until the Libyan Campaign of 1941-2'.

 

I recall reading that the efficient gun sight contributed largely to the success of the 88-mm gun in an AT role...

 

From what I have read,the results of the 88 in the Battle of Arras, were much exagerated .

 

The Germans also used there 105mm Howitzers in the direct fire mode to check the British advance, at Arras.

 

Hi, which gun are you referring to as you have the 10.5cm StuH24 L/28 or the 10.5cm K18 L/52

 

There are plenty of accounts of 88s deployed as AT in the French campaign, not just Rommel, look at the pictures of the Abbeville battlefield for instance where German infantry supported by 88mm guns repulsed the attacks of elements of the 2 DCR, De Gaule's 4th DCR and the British 1st Armoured divisions. There was even a heavy SP anti tank unit with 88mm guns mounted on semi armoured half tracks in France so the A/T capability of the gun was well known before the campaign.
One other interesting episode involving 88s in the French campaign was the German Rhine crossings, 37mm Pak guns were used to force the French to "keep their heads down" and 88 firing direct to smash the French fortifications, from the accounts I read this was a pre planned attack technique, not local improvvisation, possibly develoved by experiments against the czech forts that were similar to the French ouvrages.

View attachment 14401


Pictures are worth more than a 1000 words .. first is what's left of a French Rhine fortification observation dome after the 88 engaged it, second is reported taken during an attack by Hotchkiss tanks at Abbeville, third is gun Dora from from Flak-Abteilung 64 destroyed by Somua tanks from 3 cuirassiers and examined by a captain from 51st Highland. Note that the 88s do not have shields.

 

Hi Darren, 10.5cm leFH 18s I think, I read that Rommel put any Gun or Howitzer into the line to stop the British in any way shape or form.
Regards Ian.

 

I believe the 88 in an anti-armour role would have needed armour piercing shells, and in an AA role would have needed time-fuzed HE shells. This would discourage improvisation, since the latter can't be converted into the former. The tactics used in France and Africa would presumably have required AP ammunition to already be carried by the gunners.

The damage in Tired Old Soldier's picture, above, looks like it was made by AP projectiles, not HE.

 

Going back to Ian Hogg and his book "German Artillery in World War II" (which I don't consider outdated at all) he states that ALL German artillery pieces were to have AT capability. Therefore, their field guns had HEAT/shaped charge rounds as well as the regular HE rounds. Due to its high velocity, the 88 could puncture armor with "solid shot" and didn't need HEAT rounds. This was preferable since the spin on regular arty projectiles tended to difuse the explosive jet in HEAT rounds.

 

There was but 39 x '88' guns in dedicated ground roles in the 1940 campaign and they were intended as 'bunker -busters'.
A German Division had attached Luftwaffe '88' AA Guns that sometimes were used in extremis as AT guns.
The Jentz booklet on the '88' ('Dreaded Threat') has a breakdown of claims for the guns of Flakregiment 102 (XIX Armee-Korps) in 1940:
Aircraft.......208
Tanks...........13
Bunkers.........10
MG Nests.......13

Even by mid 1944 a Panzer Divison had only 12 x '88' guns and 212 x 75mm
a Pz Gren Divison 106 x75mm and 12 x 88mm
An Infantry Division 45 x 75mm tubes
The '88' was at all times a minor part of the AT mix.

 

Really interesting stuff. Thanks to everyone. Hopefully this thread continues with all these bits that help amateurs (like me)form an envelope of the 88's timeline and abilities.

 

By 1944 there are quite a number of Pak 43 88mm that have no AA capability but AFAIK the Pak43 was usually issued to to independent A/T batallions not divisional anti tank batallions.
AFAIK the 88mm in France had true AP rounds so didn't have to resort to the tactic of firing fuseless HE as many other large caliber weapons weapons did against tanks. I think HEAT rounds came later, and I'm not so sure the 88 ever had any, it was a relatively small caliber very high velocity gun, not the ideal for HEAT. I don't think the "short" 75 of the Pz IV had HEAT in 1940, and they needed it a lot more than the 88s, as they had big problems dealing with the allied "heavies".
From what I know 8. sPz.Jag.Abt had 10 88 SPs on half track chassis in France and Poland, at least one was lost near Stonne to a mistaken Stuka attack, do you know which units the other 29 "ground role 88" served with ?
Most of the 88s were in LW Heavy Flak batallions, but these units were often commited to a ground role.

 

I am quoting Jentz.

1/Pz Jgr Abt 8 had only 6 vehicles in France because of K.St.N.1146.
The modified towed 'gepanzerte' Flak 88's were in s.Pz.Jgd.Abt 525, 560 & 605.
After the Campaign all 3 were converted back to 37mm towed.

 

OK. So checked on HEAT and it's got good info pertaining-http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/High_explosive_anti-tank_warhead
Says Germany had HEAT for the 75mm in 1940. No mention if the 88 used it in that article....(Interestingly it does say HEAT needed larger bores, but Germany was able to fit a HEAT round over the outside barrel of an obsolete 37mm AT gun.)

Found the 88's HEAT round was: GR 39 HL. 16.8 lbs. No mention of when it was introduced.